Greenlizard0 PL & Championship Football Thread ** spoilers ** [19th - 23rd Feb 2021]

[Pigeon_Killer]

Henderson missing from the centre has been a massive issue for us but even with him in midfield, Klopp's tactics and his expectation of our players are a bigger issue now. I've said a number of times, this is exactly like his last two years at Dortmund but people always want to bring up injuries or refereeing decisions.

Article from The Guardian from 2014 that could easily be about Liverpool and this season.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/23/borussia-dortmund-jurgen-klopp-bundesliga

Dortmund’s game is all about verticality and quick shots on goal. Prising deep teams open is, not surprisingly, very difficult for them. A ‘plan b’ is easy for journalists to suggest but Dortmund-based Freddie Röckenhaus, of Süddeutsche Zeitung, is surely right to question whether Klopp has neglected to develop different, more mature facets to their game. “It could be that they have failed to add a bit of coolness to the underdog style of the boom years,” he wrote. “Dortmund don’t seem to be able to cut open teams with a surgical knife, unlike other top teams. At times, one feels that BVB are caught up in eternal adolescence and power-sapping exuberance, and that a more grown-up football style is not even wanted”.

It’s worth remembering at this point that Klopp had vowed to employ even more aggressive tactics before the start of the season. He’d promised to create a “pressing machine”. To that extent, Dortmund have played a lot of 4-4-2 this season. It’s been football without a safety net, reliant on the individual class of his defenders to cope in situations with numerical parity or worse. Injuries and loss of form for just about every defender in the squad has led to failure. So what’s next?

But there’s a second, deeper worry here, one that will render the next six weeks off perhaps even more restless for everyone at the club than a look at the table. Coaches who demand Klopp’s level of work and tactical discipline from their players don’t tend to last very long at any particular club. Think Guardiola, José Mourinho, Marcelo Bielsa, even Ralf Rangnick: wear and tear - physically, mentally and in terms of relationships - always become a problem before too long.

Point 3 of this article is the biggest issue for us now.

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/clu...why-jurgen-klopp-is-leaving-borussia-dortmund

3. Failure to implement a Plan B

Football is a fast-moving business. What is new today will be dated tomorrow. What is spectacular today will be punished tomorrow. The young Borussia Dortmund early on in the Klopp era needed only a handful of seconds from winning the ball to scoring, or at least creating chances. They had the player, ruthless when winning the ball, but also able to play the clear pass. Sometimes long, sometimes short, always finding small pockets of space.

But the players grew older and teams began to test new tactics against Borussia Dortmund. At first, they attacked Mats Hummels, who was doing all the build-up play from the unusual centre-back position. That worked to parts. They also began handing possession to BVB, and learned that by sitting deep this also meant freeing themselves from Dortmund's Gegenpressing. The last time that Dortmund press worked was in the first match of this season's Champions League when a fantastic BVB side stormed past Arsenal. But even in the Bundesliga, clubs like Bayern only handed the ball to Dortmund. Klopp, citing a difficult preseason, had no answer, even after the winter break.

 

[Moothead2]

How anyone thinks sliding in, not getting the ball and impeding a player who's about to have a tap in isn't a penalty is beyond me.

 

[manic111]

@BaZ87 I agree it wouldn't have been ideal, but I think we should have stuck with a high line of Phillips and another, and kept our best midfielders in midfield. We'd have conceded more goals, but the rest of the team would have been much, much better.

 

[manic111]

Henderson missing from the centre has been a massive issue for us but even with him in midfield, Klopp's tactics and his expectation of our players are a bigger issue now. I've said a number of times, this is exactly like his last two years at Dortmund but people always want to bring up injuries or refereeing decisions.

Article from The Guardian from 2014 that could easily be about Liverpool and this season.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/23/borussia-dortmund-jurgen-klopp-bundesliga





Point 3 of this article is the biggest issue for us now.

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/clu...why-jurgen-klopp-is-leaving-borussia-dortmund

I agree with what you say here. For me, Thiago was meant to be plan B, but to be effective he needs to play in a 4-2-3-1 with a more defensive midfielder (most recently, Kimmich at Bayern). As things have been, he's often ended up as our most defensive midfielder, which isn't his role. If he was consistently in the middle with Henderson and/or Fabinho he's good enough to carve teams apart, but as of now he's being forced into a job that doesn't suit him

 

[jonneymendoza]

Shocking absolutely shocking transition from Liverpool. Cannot believe this at all.

No way does such a dominant side fall that hard!

Liverpool fans, tell us what's going on?

 

[omnomnom]

Shocking absolutely shocking transition from Liverpool. Cannot believe this at all.

No way does such a dominant side fall that hard!

Liverpool fans, tell us what's going on?

Seriously? We have been decimated by injuries. Im not entirely sure what people thought would happen. It doesnt help that two of the three up top are having dreadful spells but unfortunately the other lad to replace them is well injured.

 

[BaZ87]

Henderson missing from the centre has been a massive issue for us but even with him in midfield, Klopp's tactics and his expectation of our players are a bigger issue now. I've said a number of times, this is exactly like his last two years at Dortmund but people always want to bring up injuries...

Come on, it's not as straight forward as that. The ridiculous run with injuries is what's led to players being put under greater physical demands - the two things go hand in hand.

For all the talk of the physical demands Klopp puts on his players, it's only really the fullbacks and 3 midfielders that applies to and in midfield we've always had lots of options because Klopp's acknowledged the need to rotate in there. We even went in with extra midfielders this season because of the congested calendar. The problem was that we lost so many midfield options (through injury or having to play CB) so early in the season, resulting in the same 3-4 midfielders having to play nearly every game and it's just snowballed from there. Just when you think you've got a couple more options coming back, somebody else picks up a knock. And it's not as if those early injuries were a result of high intensity football or fatigue. It's only now, as a result of those early injuries, that players like Henderson and Fabinho are picking up injuries as a direct result of being asked to do too much but that's because we have no choice.

@BaZ87 I agree it wouldn't have been ideal, but I think we should have stuck with a high line of Phillips and another, and kept our best midfielders in midfield. We'd have conceded more goals, but the rest of the team would have been much, much better.

You simply can't play the same high line, fullbacks bombing forward and a high press in midfield without a capable CB pairing. Everything is linked together. If you're an opposition manager and you're facing us at our best with VVD & Gomez at the back, you're playing 1 up front and telling your wide players to sit in front of your fullbacks to help the defence out. Teams aren't pressing us high up the pitch because they know that VVD, Gomez or Matip can play the ball through them and they know their chances of getting any joy on the break is minimal because the pace of our defenders. If you're an opposition manager coming up against us with Phillips and Kabak at the back, you're telling your forwards to press high because they can't play the ball out of the back and you're going to get a lot of joy on the break too. Defensively it would be a car crash, oppositition wide players would be more advanced, forcing our fullbacks back and I don't see how you're getting the ball into midfield either.

I said in my post after the game, I don't think we can play our way of playing anymore until we've got some decent CB's. We've tried putting Hendo and or Fab at the back but that leaves us just Wijnaldum (& Milner who's injured) that can press in midfield and he's currently playing in the sitting role and you can't play it without having players that can play at the back. I think we're going to have to completely change how we play until next season.

 

[inogen]

How anyone thinks sliding in, not getting the ball and impeding a player who's about to have a tap in isn't a penalty is beyond me.

Because the player just ran into him.

 

[inogen]

Fantastic win for Everton, I’m actually quite emotional as it’s been a long time coming.

Enjoy it.

 

[Moothead2]

Because the player just ran into him.

Yes, because TAA slid into his path...

 

[inogen]

Yes, because TAA slid into his path...

TAA slid in front of him, didn't foul him. He then ran into him. If you get a penalty for that, there would be 5 a game sometimes.

Thus why the VAR ref instructed that abomination of a referee to reconsider.

Why said ref only spent 3 seconds doing that is anyone's guess.

 

[Stumble Bum]

The decision was made by the ref, not VAR.

I know Never suggested it was. But when the ref takes two seconds to pretend to look at the VAR monitor then it is equally frustrating. Plus my comment was about the season overall. It has ruined football.

 

[BaZ87]

I know Never suggested it was. But when the ref takes two seconds to pretend to look at the VAR monitor then it is equally frustrating. Plus my comment was about the season overall. It has ruined football.

Ok, it seemed as if you were suggesting that VAR was to blame for the decision.

I'm anti VAR but I do think a lot of the complaints people make about VAR aren't actually VAR issues but issues with the laws of the game and or human error when using the tech.

 

[ThundyCat]

When the ref checked the VAR screen , he may of been discussing if it was a red card rather than whether it was a penalty.

If you watch the replay from the other angle when DCL has passed Trent, Trent then raised his right foot, was that an attempt to trip DCL or was it just his bodies momentum when he was sliding?

Watch from 3.40

 

[adam cool dude]

Seriously? We have been decimated by injuries. Im not entirely sure what people thought would happen. It doesnt help that two of the three up top are having dreadful spells but unfortunately the other lad to replace them is well injured.

When you got spanked by Aston Villa you had a full squad.

To be fair Klopp has done an exceptional job with Liverpool. The players have been playing way above their level for such a long time. Totally different situation to City who just have a squad brimming full of quality. To most losing KDB would mean an instant drop in form but when you have Gundogan to step in it makes very little difference.

Also not to mention nothing has changed since January and you didn't bring any players in. Spend a couple of million on defenders and it is of no surprise what you get.

Good result for don Carlo however. If Everton get Europe next season he will be my vote for manager of the season.

 

[Snax]

It's a foul when you try to slide tackle someone, miss the ball and then prevent them from getting an in play ball because your body is now in front of the attacker. The important part is that Alisson fumbles the ball so the ball is still in play Reason #1 why it's a penalty

Reason #2, if you try and hack someone down, regardless of whether you achieve your aim, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. The rules even have a specific statement saying it's a direct foul if you trip or attempt to trip someone.

2 fouls to give a penalty on.

 

[omnomnom]

When you got spanked by Aston Villa you had a full squad.

To be fair Klopp has done an exceptional job with Liverpool. The players have been playing way above their level for such a long time. Totally different situation to City who just have a squad brimming full of quality. To most losing KDB would mean an instant drop in form but when you have Gundogan to step in it makes very little difference.

Also not to mention nothing has changed since January and you didn't bring any players in. Spend a couple of million on defenders and it is of no surprise what you get.

Good result for don Carlo however. If Everton get Europe next season he will be my vote for manager of the season.

Noithing has changed in January? Well apart from the two remaining players who can play cb getting injured. We should have brought a cb in and thats on the owners being tight as per.

Freak results happen. We have had an injury in 22 game weeks this season. We have had 5 weeks where we didnt have an injury, that's unheard of.

Its absolutely incredible that Liverpool can have two 90+ seasons in a row, win a champions league and get into a final of another yet still the players are playing "well above their level". We have 5 players capable of playing cb out and a forward in Jota that was on target to score 20+ for us this season, im not sure what people were expecting.

When City dropped off last season it was because Leporte was out...they still had 2 50mil+ cbs on the bench yet for whatever reason its ignored for Liverpool and instead its "all teams have injuries".

 

[BaZ87]

We should have brought a cb in and thats on the owners being tight as per.

I'd love to know what your expectations of the owners are. Do you believe the made up nonsense you find on twitter that we don't spend money or do you expect them to throw money at us like the Sheikh's at City? As of our last set of accounts, since FSG took over we've paid out £680m in cash on players, infrastructure work, bank interest & loan repayments despite only generating just under £500m of excess cash ourselves, that's after paying our £300m+ wagebill btw. We managed to do that because FSG have put around £150m of cash into the club, more than all but 4-5 PL owners have put into their clubs.

As for "we should have bought a CB...". Who? I said last night, most CB's are rubbish and the good ones are either going to cost an absolute fortune or simply be unavailable. We could have easily spent £20-30m on a CB and ended up with somebody no better than Kabak.

To most losing KDB would mean an instant drop in form but when you have Gundogan to step in it makes very little difference.

To be fair, even City would struggle if KDB done his ACL, on the same day Gudogan was then out on and off for 2 months, Bernado Silva then ruptured a tendon in his knee a month later, Gudogan then comes back and does his ankle ligaments that keeps him out for 6 months and City are left with Foden, Rodri & Fernandinho playing Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday for months on end, which ultimately leads to them picking up small muscle injuries.

Maybe I'm only noticing it more because it's Liverpool but I can't recall another side have the run of injuries we've had this season, I certainly can't recall another Liverpool side have anything close to it. I've said this numerous times before, everybody gets caught up with the VVD injury or our CB situation as a whole but our injuries this season go way beyond that. On top of the three 6-9 month injuries at CB, we've had a further 10 senior players that have been out for anywhere between 6 and 12 weeks. Given very few sides have more than 25 first team capable players, that's half of your squad out injured for a significant time. No side is managing with that.

 

[omnomnom]

I expect them to sign a CB when we literally have zero fit. Preferably at the start not the end of the window...

 

[CliffyG]

Just watching match of the day and seen the Everton penalty. Looks like a definite motion to hook his foot to me.