30xx Series Founders Edition

[A2B]

That doesn't follow at all.

I get it doesn't sound great. It isn't, but still true.

In fact they supply negative value, they sever the retailer>consumer relationship and they're highly unlikely to (for instance) handle RMAs etc, while charging higher prices. They exacerbate shortages by taking a chunk of the supply.

Think about it this way. assuming the main issue is shortages, not scalpers. Then most people wouldn't get a card anyway, because there are just way too few. if they're desperate, they can't go to a retailer and offer to pay more to get one. But they can with a scalper.

So, scalpers only exist because some people are willing to pay the crazy prices to get something they can't. That's the 'service' they offer, and that's the only reason they exist.

My argument only fails if scalpers are the main reason you can't get cards. I don't think we're there (yet).

 

[A2B]

.. think about how much time/effort it takes to reliably get one. How many normal people can do that, or have the patience for it? Even the bot writers have to put a huge amount of effort in to make it work, and then stay in the arms race with the retailers. And without bot writers we wouldn't have automatic alerts either.

Yes it's a mess, but a predictable one. The only way out is to get more cards.

 

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

So, scalpers only exist because some people are willing to pay the crazy prices to get something they can't.

Those same people may have been able to buy at the regular price without the scalpers.
Look at what happens with gig tickets, how quickly everything sells out and how many tickets appear almost immediately for massive markups. The scalpers are creating further constrictions in supply, to their own benefit.

Being able to extract money from people by being faster to buy something than they are is not a service.

 

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

Even the bot writers have to put a huge amount of effort in to make it work, and then stay in the arms race with the retailers.

Does this not scream "bad actor" to you?

I agree, fixing card supply is the only way this stuff is going to be stopped. Doesn't mean I agree that scalping is any sort of service, or provides value. It extracts value, certainly.

 

[A2B]

Does this not scream "bad actor" to you?

what about the alert bot writers? they give people like us an edge (well until recently, that edge may be over). is that immoral? maybe it is, but then aren't we all in it together?

Doesn't mean I agree that scalping is any sort of service, or provides value. It extracts value, certainly.

I personally agree with you. but the only way around scalpers is if everybody else did too, ie. if they weren't willing to pay them. so again, blame the buyers, or blame the system where everything is about profit.

another way - if you sell an Ampere card on Ebay and start it at £0.99 - ie. no desire to scalp. would you cancel the auction if the bids go sky high anyway? probably not right?

that's our system - everything is about profit, and we're all trained for it. that causes everything else (scarcity = value, value = profit, so someone will want it because that's what most of us do in general). I'm not saying it's great, but it's inevitable unless we change the system (or just get more bloody cards ).

 

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

what about the alert bot writers? they give people like us an edge (well until recently, that edge may be over). is that immoral? maybe it is, but then aren't we all in it together?

Without actually interposing themselves for profit, I see it as very different.

but the only way around scalpers is if everybody else did too

Or by taking legal and/or commercial measures to ban such activity. Where live events are concerned this seems to be becoming more of a thing.

another way - if you sell an Ampere card on Ebay and start it at £0.99 - ie. no desire to scalp. would you cancel the auction if the bids go sky high anyway? probably not right?

If I was to sell an ampere card on ebay it would be because I'd bought one to use but discovered it hadn't met my needs somehow. This is different from hoovering up all that I could for a profit.


I agree, it's a frequent side-effect of the system. Where I disagree is that working within such a system to maximise ones own profit for providing no service, to the disadvantage of others, is necessarily moral. I think we can say it's bad, even though it's legal.

 

[Joxeon]

The alert bots don't help either since any cards that come into stock get brought immediately so it compounds the stock issue as stock never has a chance to build up and since the stock sells out immediately this is just causing retailers to keep putting up the prices.

Everyone has the bots now so there is no advantage and it just encourages some people who already managed to get a card to keep trying for more to scalp as there is cash to be made with little effort other than a few clicks of the mouse.

 

[A2B]

Without actually interposing themselves for profit, I see it as very different.

The alerters make money. eg. from Amazon affiliate links, and probably other things I don't know about. and they might even skim the odd card for themselves or their buddies. but hey they provide a massive service, have to pay for infrastructure, and I bet the people behind them are running them 24/7. lot of work no doubt. and they have to be the best/fastest, else everybody jumps ship.

and (quoting below), they disadvantage others, but advantage us. grey area right?

Or by taking legal and/or commercial measures to ban such activity. Where live events are concerned this seems to be becoming more of a thing.

sure but the real problem is people willing to pay. if you're a manufacturer like nvidia, and see today that you might have underpriced your cards (because they are worth whatever people are willing to pay), you will up the price next time right? same with Apple - I think their phones are absurdly overpriced - but people are willing to pay. if they weren't, they'd be cheaper.

that's the system based on markets. that's what markets are - demand = price (unless you're a lousy business and sell too cheap or too expensive ).

Where I disagree is that working within such a system to maximise ones own profit for providing no service, to the disadvantage of others, is necessarily moral.

.. except it is a service to those willing to pay, and it advantages them (while disadvantaging others). so it's not as clear cut. if you're in the disadvantaged group you complain, but you wouldn't if you were in the advantaged group . Again, not saying it's great (any of it) ...

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Oh snap, what have I started.

Ultimately scalpers wouldn’t exist if either of the following two conditions were met:
There was no restrictions on supply
People were not willing to pay inflated prices.

Neither of those are actually anything to do with the scalper themselves.

It’s unlikely laws to stop people selling good ‘above RRP’ would be effective.

Anti ticket tout laws are designed to tackle professional touts profiting from re-selling something which is a one off event extremely finite. That doesn’t really work with things that exist for long periods of time.

If you look at who is actually scalping these things, it’s every man and his dog these days. They might only have few cards but that wouldn’t be enough to consider them a professional trader.

It’s not even like it’s just GPUs, people were scalping Pokemon cards, books, laptops, even freezers last year...

For any law to be effective it would have to apply to almost everything which would have loads of unintended consequences.

 

[A2B]

The alert bots don't help either since any cards that come into stock get brought immediately so it compounds the stock issue as stock never has a chance to build up and since the stock sells out immediately this is just causing retailers to keep putting up the prices.

that happens anyway when there isn't enough stock - alerters don't make them sell out faster, just at a specific time of day. even if people could buy them throughout a day, there'd still be way more people than cards, so nothing changes.

alerters exist to provide an edge to those that know about them, or to save you having to check a site every minute of every day. the downside is that once everybody uses them (like more or less now it seems), that edge at least is gone.

 

[A2B]

Oh snap, what have I started.

Hey good discussion .

It’s unlikely laws to stop people selling good ‘above RRP’ would be effective.

you'd have to sue the AIB's too .

If you look at who is actually scalping these things, it’s every man and his dog these days. They might only have few cards but that wouldn’t be enough to consider them a professional trader.

exactly, why wouldn't they? we're brought up that the only way to survive is to look for profit everywhere we can, and then when someone does with their card, we hate them for it? hate the game, not the players.

 

[Joxeon]

that happens anyway when there isn't enough stock - alerters don't make them sell out faster, just at a specific time of day. even if people could buy them throughout a day, there's still be way more people than cards, so nothing changes.

alerters exist to provide an edge to those that know about them, or to save you having to check a site every minute of every day. the downside is that once everybody uses them (like more or less now it seems), that edge at least is gone.

When OCUK added cards to 3D printers they lasted a few days as there was no bot alerts set up, now they are added to bot alerts when Gibbo listed 200 3070s they had 300 orders in 2 minutes.

It may seem tedious checking the sites yourself but if you want a card bad enough then you would do it, people who were just looking for a quick and easy scalp likely wouldn't put the effort in or get bored quickly doing it regularly but the convenience of the alerts keep them coming back for more.

 

[Minstadave]

3090 is on the way! Awesome

 

[A2B]

When OCUK added cards to 3D printers they lasted a few days as there was no bot alerts set up, now they are added to bot alerts when Gibbo listed 200 3070s they had 300 orders in 2 minutes.

sure, but that only worked because not many people knew about it. so what you're saying is, you would like that edge so you can get one, but never mind everyone else who loses out. how is that better or more moral?

It may seem tedious checking the sites yourself but if you want a card bad enough then you would do it, people who were just looking for a quick and easy scalp likely wouldn't put the effort in or get board quickly doing it regularly but the convenience of the alerts keep them coming back for more.

true, but it makes it easier for us too, so the tech is neutral. and I haven't used auto-buy bots, but it seems they charge a pretty hefty fee (and then you can't be sure that someone like Nvidia doesn't upgrade their bot protection and you wasted your money). and auto-buy bots must be pretty complex and/or very unreliable.

you absolutely can make an argument about wanting things to be better - but then nobody should be using alerters, nobody should want an edge, there should just be a pre-order system for everyone, with everything at MSRP, and we all just wait. I think the problem is, we're not willing to wait that long, are we?

 

[GhostDog1981]

3090 is on the way! Awesome

Same here (3090FE) alert went off at 0910 and I got past captcha by 9.11 ordered by 9.16 and payed by 9.19, all gone by 9.20

Consider myself very lucky to say the least despite poneying up £1410.48p

 

[chroniclard]

At my PC most of the day working/gaming, except when FE stock drops, then I am always busy doing something else.

 

[Joxeon]

sure, but that only worked because not many people knew about it. so what you're saying is, you would like that edge so you can get one, but never mind everyone else who loses out. how is that better or more moral?



true, but it makes it easier for us too, so the tech is neutral. and I haven't used auto-buy bots, but it seems they charge a pretty hefty fee (and then you can't be sure that someone like Nvidia doesn't upgrade their bot protection and you wasted your money). and auto-buy bots must be pretty complex and/or very unreliable.

you absolutely can make an argument about wanting things to be better - but then nobody should be using alerters, nobody should want an edge, there should just be a pre-order system for everyone, with everything at MSRP, and we all just wait. I think the problem is, we're not willing to wait that long, are we?

I already have a 3080 which I was lucky enough to get on launch but I still have friends that are trying to get cards, what I'm saying is the alerts have contributed to this worsening situation as any stock that arrives gets snapped up almost immediately so retailers keep raising prices and it creates a FOMO around the drops so people feel they have to over pay or miss out.

The professional scalpers with buy bots are a small minority, most scalpers now are people who joined alerts sites and got a card for themselves but now just jump on the alerts to make a quick buck.

 

[Minstadave]

If anyone got charged for postage but would normally qualify for free postage ask for a refund as they normally agree.

I got free postage with mine.

 

[GhostDog1981]

If anyone got charged for postage but would normally qualify for free postage ask for a refund as they normally agree.

I got free postage with mine.

I tried that they refused to give me postage refund as they said I was lucky to get a FE card today and should be happy.

Still got a 3090FE so happy end to the day.

 

[sepulchre]

Pleased I got my 3090FE just before Christmas, even with the time they were in stock for I still had time to deliberate over it but ultimately told myself I wouldn't get a 3080 for an age so went for it, seems that was a good decision in hindsight. Anyone just getting one now - they are excellent cards, you will enjoy them