RAM upgrade selection help please

[Gunslinger]

ok, so everyone tends to have a favourite area of PC building and their knowledge tends to focus around that area...... RAM selection/knowledge is not mine

I understand the basics, and have a little knowledge that different board trace topography and dimm rank configurations exist, but have to go looking and gen up if I need to. In general i'd be working with some sort of room for error, and then just set xmp in the bios and let it take care of itself! occasionally i've had to play around with manual settings, but this is about where my knowledge falls off a cliff so to speak!

Enter my latest thing to upgrade/work on, a HP Pavilion Desktop 590-p0006na UK

https://support.hp.com/gb-en/document/c06210056

it's pretty much as per the specs on that page, with a couple of notable differences.

1. I've just installed an MSI GeForce GTX 1650 D6 VENTUS XS OCV1
2. This forced an upgrade on the PSU to one that actually had a 6 pin power connector for the GPU! and was more than a 180w (got a HP 400w platinum rated model - stupid expensive proprietary sized thing)
3. Installed RAM is one stick of 4GB 2666mhz (MTA4ATF51264AZ-2G6E) not 2400 as listed on the specs linked above.


So obviously on installing that card and PSU and seeing how it ran overall, i decided it needed a little boost, money/budget is tight, and obviously given what it is, there is certainly a tipping point where upgrading isn't worth it for the returns.

I've already picked up a 16GB Optane memory module (m.2) for £14 and now I need to do something with that RAM, I was genuinely surprised they still sold things with only 4GB in it, given what windoze is like for hoovering up resources!

The board has 2 Dimm slots, and a max of 2666mhz, I haven't been in the BIOS yet, but would expect minimal options, and I very much doubt if it would be happy running too far over 1.2v and as for any sort of overclocking forget it. The specs page for the motherbaord says 4 and 8GB Dimms supported, then says upto 32GB is possible with Windows 64bit so i'm going to ignore that, and just assume that Dimm size options have moved on since this was built!


Obviously i'm looking at a dual channel configuration, I see no point in grabbing another 4GB module as that would only give me 8GB and I consider the minimum these days to be 16GB,ideally i'd like to fit 32GB but cost might be my limiting factor.

When it comes to speed selection, is it best I simply restrict my searches to 2666mhz modules, because anything faster, even if the BIOS has XMP 2.0, is likely to simply fail due to lack of support from the board, and as I said it's very unlikely to have any form of overclocking options being a H370 based OEM board, or could I buy faster and it'll simply run at the 2666mhz speed with some manual settings, and if so how would I know what timings to use, because those listed for whatever I get would be based on the faster mhz? I know they will likely default to 2133mhz initially but i'd like to run it at 2666mhz to eek out what i can from it.

Some Corsair modules have 2 xmp settings in them, are those generally the rated one and then a slower one that's more likely to be stable ?


So what would you guys fit ?

TIA

 

[Tetras]

I'd be very surprised if an 8th gen system can't support 32GB, but like you said, the spec is rather ambiguous on this. I'd check if it's possible to adjust memory speed and voltage in the BIOS, because if it isn't, you need to make sure that it will boot correctly at the right frequency. Buying higher spec modules is not a problem, but many will boot at 2133 and if you can't configure it, that's worse than just buying 2666 which boots at 2666.

What speed is the memory actually running at, by the way? 2400 or 2666?

 

[Gunslinger]

Thanks for the reply and info.
Current speed it's actually running at I couldn't tell you as I wasn't planning on the memory upgrade when I had it to install the card until I saw it running, so never went anywhere near the BIOS anddidn't have a copy of CPUz to hand.

32GB was going to be my preferred option, but, I've just gambled and said i'd take the ram in this members market thread https://www.overclockers.co.uk/foru...-fan-triple-pack-16gb-vengeance-ram.18920729/
Worst case scenario I have 16GB of RAM spare for some point later!

But am still interested in the answers and suggestions here, because at least now I know what i'll hopefully be trying to fit!

 

[Tetras]

It appears (don't have the model number) that it is configured to boot at 2133, so hopefully you'll be able to change it in the BIOS. But, 16GB is still a huge upgrade from 4GB which is borderline unusable nowadays, so I think it's worth it even you lose a few Mhz in the switch.

 

[Gunslinger]

that's sort of the logic i'm working to, although i do get what you mean about the 2666 potentially having been a safer bet (especially if XMP is a possibility)
have to be fast in the members market and i'd rather buy from there than roll the dice on fleabay, so took a chance!

have asked him to install cpuz and send me a snap of the memory tab, will see then what's going on currently from that, and then see later in the bios (will have to go see how this thing interrupts to bios as I don't think there was any form of prompt and post is hidden my a HP logo )

My plan is to hope it boots initially at 2133, and then if i can adjust the settings, then i'll likely try the timings and voltage from the specs for the same model but 2666mhz speed kit, and see how that works, because that 3000mhz kit wants 1.35v to hit that speed, whereas the 2666mhz kit want 1.2, and I don't think even if XMP is available, that it'll run stably at 3000mhz on that board....... how does that sound as a plan ?

 

[Tetras]

XMP won't enable 3000 Mhz in a locked board, but it might enable 2666 if available. I'd be surprised if you were able to configure timings or voltage on an OEM motherboard, I would use JEDEC or board defaults, because there's no point giving it any excuse to lose stability at a voltage of 1.2v and the benefit of tighter timings would be minimal. I wouldn't do anything that needs higher voltage because I don't know how much cooling there is, especially if it's a SFF case.

 

[Gunslinger]

noted, thank you, might hit you up for some more advice when we know a bit more.

I take it the JEDEC options are pre-loaded to the Dimms much like XMP and should be an option in the BIOS settings? (if there is any)

EDIT:
cooling... not something HP considered

 

[Tetras]

noted, thank you, might hit you up for some more advice when we know a bit more.

I take it the JEDEC options are pre-loaded to the Dimms much like XMP and should be an option in the BIOS settings? (if there is any)

EDIT:
cooling... not something HP considered

They're usually what's loaded onto the SPD for the motherboard to configure automatically when it boots, or what the board will use for defaults if you select the frequency manually.

 

[Gunslinger]

ok, I was on the right track then, roughly.

ok, well fingers crossed lets see how it does when it arrives and I can get the machine, it's a case of little upgrades to help him along, after this will be a cheap 500gb SATA SSD and leave the optane drive buffering/boosting the HDD, so he'll have a noticeable increase in usability for less than 100, can't complain at that


Thanks again

 

[Gunslinger]

well that didn't go well.

RAM installed and system restarted, and it's bricked windows 10... what a mess!

BIOS has ZERO memory settings, can;'t even see them in this HP Pavilion pre-built, catching it at start with escape does indeed show the full 16GB compliment and shows as 2133mhz (not unexpected), as does catching it with the HP diagnosis tool access (F2) and it'll sit in BIOS quite happily, just not boot with the new RAM (could be a voltage issue but who knows)

I also installed an optane module at the same time, expecting it to have no affect on the system as the softwares not installed, again shown in BIOS as there and recognised etc.


system failed to boot, got stuck in the auto repair loop, or just hung screen before windows load...... now i can't even get it to boot with the original RAM installed and optane removed (so original config)

also replaced the rear pwn fan with a noctua reddux pwm and the system thought it had stopped because it ran so slow, and was going to shut down because it thought it had failed


last time i do anything with a pre-built system with half a bios and stuff hidden away like F2 to access HP diagnostics etc

 

[Gunslinger]

ok so..... sorted, what a complete pain in the rear!

couple of resets to default on the BIOS (next would have been to pull the CMOS battery) and several more failed to boot-repair-diagnose loops before I finally managed to get it to load a safe mode login page, which when I restarted after that it went back to the normal Login page and loaded windows properly, albeit it slowly at first, had it contected to the internet as well at this point and the first thing it did was download and install a load of updates whihc meant more restarts and delays while it installed them


ended up with it running with the New Corsair 3000mhz ram in dual channel mode but limited to 2133mhz with timings that matched one of the JEDEC profiles, I think it was the tighter one, but no way to manually set the timings or 2666mhz speed.

after that I managed to get the optane module installed which was relatively painless and a Samsung sm863a drive to migrate windows to later, but I suggested he take it to the local shop to do that.... cause if windows spits its dummy at new RAM i want to be no where near it when its moved to a new drive lol


one thing i did forget to do, was after everything was done and it was settled, there was an option to save current BIOS settings as default - probably should have done that

 

[Gunslinger]

well this is the gift that keeps on giving..... got a call last night, he started it up as normal, and out of no where windows repair/diagnostic then to the page that says machine didn't start properly repair required... so basically the same loop I got stuck in.

could be coincidental, but I doubt it, have to assume it's the RAM it doesn't like, most annoying thing is I am sure this is windows related, will have to see if I can source some other RAM, and this time make sure it's 2666mhz and 1.2v rated as default, not faster or higher.

If anyone has any thoughts or similar experiences please feel free to chip in, at this point i'm at a bit of a loss, will get it back over the weekend, try and reset the bios again, and get it to kick through to safe mode login screen then reboot, that seemed to fix it last time.

 

[Tetras]

Practically no DDR4 will crash running 2133 @ 1.2v. What else was added? An optane module and a Samsung SM863a? What's Windows installed on now?

 

[Gunslinger]

yeah that's what i figured when i bought it knowing the boards max was 2666mhz

OS still on the HDD, only added the sm863a then to save taking the system apart later to install it and run cabling, but only added that after i'd managed to get the system up and running and had rebooted it several times to ensure it was stable and already had the optane drive in place and in use., and it's just been sat there idling, not being used since, it's only there for the OS to be transferred to later (and was going to suggest he took it one of the local shops that will be better quipped to deal with it if it was to cause more problems)

once it initially spat the dummy and went wrong, i stripped everything out i'd fitted and struggled to get it to boot with the original RAM, so once I did manage to get it back to working, on the second attempt as it were, I only added the RAM, to which it immediately reverted to the repairing/diagnostic loop which i managed to get it out of by resetting BIOs to defaults a couple of times and pushing to safe mode, and then restarting when it gave me the login request, once I got it started and had rebooted a few times, then I added the optane drive, which went as I expected, it simply showed up as a 16GB SSD, and the system continued to boot fine in that config, then I ran the intel software that configures the bios and RST driver for using the Optane drive as an accelerator for the HDD (my plan was to leave it in that configuration even after the OS was swapped over, as it would speed up loading of his favorite games etc) .... the software install and subsequent configuration changes performed during the install all went without a hitch, and the system rebooted fine.

After which I left the system running for a few hours, did some basic browsing on it, rebooted it countless times and then gave it back it back to my buddy... his lad used it daily for the next 10-14 days, and then one evening on switching it back on it was stuck back in the repairing windows/diagnosing problems loop that it got stuck in when i put the RAM.

up to the point I added the new RAM and the SSD's the system had shown zero issues or instabilities, so whilst this issue is certainly not unheard of, in fact it looks like it's been an ongoing issue for about the last 4 years, and could be related to a botched windows update, it's too much of a coincidence in my eyes. I'm not at all familiar with windows 10, and this is making me want to have even less to do with it, as it looks like a re-install is going to be needed, just because the hardware configuration changed and windoze didn't like it, that is total BS.


EDIT:
Forgot to say, one of the things I did today was to disable the Optane Volume in BIOS, so now it only uses the HDD to boot directly from, and still no difference, startup repair can't repair squat

 

[Gunslinger]

definitely a windows issue, stupid piece of cr*p can't even reset the OS from the recovery console...... time to wipe everything and start again, not messing around trying to flog a dead horse back to life

 

[Tetras]

Did you ever check the SMART status of the drive, or replace the SATA cable?

 

[Gunslinger]

not smart, but sfc scannow and chkdsk both ok, and yes, swapped the existing one with the new one i added for the SSD.

gonna just re-install windows tomorrow onto the SSD