Used/cheap audio setup?

[Unseul]

OK, going to try here too.

Got a second hand logitech z680 (I know, booo hiss), the amp/woofer recently made some noises, then smelled of burning, and no more sounds .

Now, I'm working on the assumption that the 5 speakers still work, they're rated at 8 ohms I believe. Could I look to pickup a amplifier and still run them? I guess I'd need a woofer too. Or perhaps get 2 decent bookshelf speakers to take up the slack (and keep 2 of the satellites at the back etc?).

Or buy a second hand 5.1 system with a proper amp etc (there's a few available on ebay etc).

Don't have a ton of funds available, so really looking to do this as cheaply as possible.

Main desire is to still have 5.1 sound. I'm not a massive audiophile, don't need perfect pitch etc, but I do enjoy surround sound in some games etc, and that's really what I'm after.

 

[lucid]

If we start with the Z680 spec as a bass line, then on the input front you have optical (x1), coaxial (x1), and stereo 3.5mm jack. For surround decoding it features Dolby ProLogic II, Dolby Digital and DTS. Pretty-much any DVD era AV receiver will cover those bases. Brands to look at: Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Marantz, Harman Kardon, Sherwood, Cambridge Audio. Brands to avoid: Onkyo, ARCAM, Technics. Brands to be careful with: Sony


You'll definitely need a sub with those Logitech speakers. The idea of using a pair of bookshelf speakers is going to give you a big challenge finding something that matches the tone of the Z680 sats. The chances are that if the bookshelf speakers are anyway half decent then they'll sound noticeably different to the point that it becomes distracting as music and effects pan between the speakers.

Yamaha powered subs are inexpensive second-hand, so might just tick your boxes.

 

[Unseul]

It's going to be primarily used on my pc, i was using direct channel before, since I don't have a discrete sound card offering dolby features.

That's a great list of receiver brands to start with though, thank you. If wanting to start off using the z680 speakers, how do I make sure the receiver works correctly with them, or should it be a given? Are there particular models/versions that are worth looking into, I'm guessing I need to go 2nd hand.

I'm seeing a few 2nd hand Yamaha receivers that seem to have the links I need, not sure which model is the latest just yet. There's also a full Philips FR984 set available, but Philips isn't something you've listed at all?

Really appreciate the response.

EDIT - Also, if I see impedence of 6ohms on a receiver, can I use 8ohm speakers with that? (or vice versa etc) or does it have to be a proper match.

 

[lucid]

You haven't specified a budget, so I'm working on the presumption that second-hand is what you'll be focusing on, and the receiver will be somewhere between £50 and £100 and the subwoofer <£50.

A few of the TV-maker-brands such as Philips, Samsung and LG, dabbled with trying to make an AV receiver + speaker package from time to time.The results were like shop's own-brand coke versus Coca-Cola; just a bit crap compared to the real thing.

My impression is that this gear sold mostly in each brand's home territories where consumers wanted something that looked like a proper
set-up but from a known TV brand. The left-over stock made it to the UK to be sold through discounters. On the UK market, Pioneer, Onkyo and Yamaha all had better budget starter systems for £200-£250 comprising a basic 5.1 AV receiver and speaker package with DD/DTS/DPL II processing. Later versions added HDMI and HD-audio processing for Blu-ray compatibility.

Naturally some compromises had to be made to hit the price points. The biggest of these was the speaker quality and the use of a passive sub.This is basically just a speaker in a box rather than having the built-in amplifier of an active sub. It renders the speakers worthless as a used sell-on since very few proper AV receivers have an amplifier channel for the sub.

Still, the kits were good value at the time - a full 5.1 system for around the same price as the cheapest proper AV receiver on its own - and were a country mile better than typical disc-player-based home cinema kits sold at similar prices from Comet, Currys and the independent TV shops. To give you an idea, there's a Yamaha HTR-2064 kit listed at the moment on Ebay (# 184707806387) for a B-it-N of £110. It's a full package with speakers.


Regarding models, there really are too many to list everything. You're looking at two decades worth of product, with brands such as Pioneer, Denon and Yamaha having anything between three and six product tiers, and changing products as frequently as every year. That's a lot of gear. The good thing though is there are plenty of reviews online not to mention user manuals, so you can check specs and review product. You'll also see if there have been any model problems.

As a general rule, Yamaha and Pioneer have both been pretty reliable as brands. Onkyo HDMI product has been a nightmare. Older Denon (AVR****) gear pretty-much rock solid but the last 4-5 years their newer generation AVR-X**** stuff runs really hot and that causes overheating problems. That range though might be outside of your price band. Older Marantz was fine but pricey. Newer Marantz a bit iffy - shares the same chassis as Denon.

Perhaps the thing for you to do is set budget range; what you'd like to spend and then what you can afford to go up to. When you're looking at used AV receivers remember the accessories. In particular, you want to make sure that the receiver comes with a remote control and the set-up/calibration mic. The mic is the thing people lose or forget about, but it's important if you want the amp to set itself up for you and make use of some of the room correction features on more advanced amps. A £50 bargain AV receiver isn't such a bargain if you've then got to spend another £40 paying through the nose for a used mic. There are aftermarket mics, but can you be sure they'll work correctly with the amp?

 

[Unseul]

Brilliant advice, thank you, I absolutely wouldn't have known about the mic!

Around £150 seems like a reasonable budget that I could work to. As already mentioned, this could be just a woofer and receiver, if I can use my old speakers (I'm guessing they're working OK).

The £110 system on ebay doesn't seem to allow 6 direct channels input (excuse me if I have the wording wrong). By which I mean I currently have 3 cables leading from the back of my motherboard at the moment, one carrying left/right front, one left/right back and one centre/woofer (I believe). Can I use the hdmi socket on my motherboard for sound (gigabyte x370 k7), I think so, but it seems daft to put myself in a position where I then need to chase a sound card (presumably) as well, when trying to budget. I will say (if you think it's worth it) £110 looks OK.

It doesn't look like it has the mic (if it even came with one). If I'm working from my PC however, rather than a home theatre setup, I presume I can use the correction options on my PC software to improve the sound, rather than the amp?

EDIT - Again, thank you for the education, I do appreciate it!

 

[Gray2233]

You would connect to a receiver like that via HDMI (DP should work with a DP > HDMI converter) from your graphics card, you'll only be able to use the HDMI out on your motherboard if you're using an APU. The receiver itself is what will do the processing for your audio, you don't need a soundcard for what you're looking at.

I suspect you'd be better off starting with a decent (budget) receiver and a 2.0 setup, then expand on it over time as funds allow. Someone recently sold some Monitor Audio Bronze BX2's for £50 over in the MM for example, which is an absolutely cracking deal tbh. There's some excellent options out there if you're willing to wait and pick up bargains as they come rather than jumping the gun.

 

[lucid]

The £110 system on ebay doesn't seem to allow 6 direct channels input (excuse me if I have the wording wrong). By which I mean I currently have 3 cables leading from the back of my motherboard at the moment, one carrying left/right front, one left/right back and one centre/woofer (I believe). Can I use the hdmi socket on my motherboard for sound (gigabyte x370 k7), I think so, but it seems daft to put myself in a position where I then need to chase a sound card (presumably) as well, when trying to budget. I will say (if you think it's worth it) £110 looks OK.

It doesn't look like it has the mic (if it even came with one).

The HTR system was more as an illustration of what these budget/entry-level all-in-one packages were like.

This level of gear wouldn't feature a 5.1/7.1 direct multichannel input. That was a more advanced feature and found on amps at £600+ rather that all-in-one kits at £250. It was used for connecting SACD and DVD-Audio players and, for a while before HDMI became mainstream, as a way to get uncompressed multichannel audio in to an amp that didn't decode it direct from the HDMI feed.

Likewise, compare the rear panel of that HTR against some of the higher-end receivers. You'll see there are massively more connections. That's the effect of cutting something down to the bare bones to hit a price point.

Drom what you're saying so far, I would suggest keeping HDMI/DisplayPort away from the amp. Keep the picture connection wire t to the monitor so that resolution and refresh rate doesn't become an issue.

Look for an AV amp or AV receiver with a 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel in (both do 5.1 even when an amp is 7.1 compatible). Forgoing HDMI completely on the receiver/amp will allow you to look at cheaper and older amps. Bear in mind though that many if not all rely heavily on onscreen displays for set-up. This is more than just the channel levels and speaker distances. There are features such as input assignment, Lip Sync, audio processing defaults etc etc that you'll need to look at. In order to do this, make sure you have some way to display the amp's Monitor Output signal.

Two other bits of info:

It is possible to set up an AV amp / AV receiver without a mic. You need a tape measure and a sound level meter to do it. The tape measure should be an easy tool to find. Just make sure it's long enough to reach. A sound level meter will be trickier, but you can use a smart phone app.

What you won't be able to use so easily without the mic is any room acoustic correction features. Pre-HDMI amps didn't feature this much though, so it may not be such a big deal.

AV-amp vs AV-receiver. The receiver has a built-in tuner and so at the time of import these attracted a lower import tariff compare to amplifiers. Apart from the tuner features, there shouldn't be a massive difference in the functions.

AV-amps for those brands that featured them tended to be aimed at a higher-end market though, so they're a bit rarer because they sold in smaller numbers. For what you need, usually can buy either and it'll do the same job.

 

[Unseul]

You would connect to a receiver like that via HDMI (DP should work with a DP > HDMI converter) from your graphics card, you'll only be able to use the HDMI out on your motherboard if you're using an APU. The receiver itself is what will do the processing for your audio, you don't need a soundcard for what you're looking at.

I suspect you'd be better off starting with a decent (budget) receiver and a 2.0 setup, then expand on it over time as funds allow. Someone recently sold some Monitor Audio Bronze BX2's for £50 over in the MM for example, which is an absolutely cracking deal tbh. There's some excellent options out there if you're willing to wait and pick up bargains as they come rather than jumping the gun.

The reason I was looking for a receiver and sub woofer is because I'm not currently an massive audiophile, but do enjoy surround sound, and that's what I'm looking to keep, more than a quality 2 speaker setup. If I can just wire up my current logitech speakers, even though I know they aren't the best, it's my preference.

The HTR system was more as an illustration of what these budget/entry-level all-in-one packages were like.

This level of gear wouldn't feature a 5.1/7.1 direct multichannel input. That was a more advanced feature and found on amps at £600+ rather that all-in-one kits at £250. It was used for connecting SACD and DVD-Audio players and, for a while before HDMI became mainstream, as a way to get uncompressed multichannel audio in to an amp that didn't decode it direct from the HDMI feed.

Likewise, compare the rear panel of that HTR against some of the higher-end receivers. You'll see there are massively more connections. That's the effect of cutting something down to the bare bones to hit a price point.

Drom what you're saying so far, I would suggest keeping HDMI/DisplayPort away from the amp. Keep the picture connection wire t to the monitor so that resolution and refresh rate doesn't become an issue.

Look for an AV amp or AV receiver with a 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel in (both do 5.1 even when an amp is 7.1 compatible). Forgoing HDMI completely on the receiver/amp will allow you to look at cheaper and older amps. Bear in mind though that many if not all rely heavily on onscreen displays for set-up. This is more than just the channel levels and speaker distances. There are features such as input assignment, Lip Sync, audio processing defaults etc etc that you'll need to look at. In order to do this, make sure you have some way to display the amp's Monitor Output signal.

Two other bits of info:

It is possible to set up an AV amp / AV receiver without a mic. You need a tape measure and a sound level meter to do it. The tape measure should be an easy tool to find. Just make sure it's long enough to reach. A sound level meter will be trickier, but you can use a smart phone app.

What you won't be able to use so easily without the mic is any room acoustic correction features. Pre-HDMI amps didn't feature this much though, so it may not be such a big deal.

AV-amp vs AV-receiver. The receiver has a built-in tuner and so at the time of import these attracted a lower import tariff compare to amplifiers. Apart from the tuner features, there shouldn't be a massive difference in the functions.

AV-amps for those brands that featured them tended to be aimed at a higher-end market though, so they're a bit rarer because they sold in smaller numbers. For what you need, usually can buy either and it'll do the same job.

I've seen some rear panels that make it look like the receiver is larger than my meshify c! I don't really know where I'd put something that huge, but I'd work it out. Thank you for the advice of avoiding the HDMI connection if possible.

Looking at stuff on ebay, I don't see a single one with anything that looks like a mic, is there somewhere other than ebay i should be looking? Tons of yamaha ones that look to have all I need though?

There's a Yamaha RX-V396RDS AV Receiver and 5.1 Speaker Set on ebay, it says collection only, but if I throw him some extra cash, I wonder if he'd agree to post. Looks like it has everything I need in the receiver and the speakers?

 

[Unseul]

There's one of these for sale RX-V540RDS on ebay. Looks like it has what i need and at a decent price so far. Is there some reason I shouldn't get it? Not long left on the sale so hopefully won't rocket up in cost.

 

[lucid]

If it stays at that price, then no. The fact that the set-up relies on the front panel display might work to your advantage. It's a receiver from early 2000, and if you miss this you might find something higher or later in Yams model range for similar money as these are a bit of work to shift. They do sound good though with both movies and music. Gaming should be fun through it.

Keep an open mind on other products. Another £20-£40 could take you up several notches in features and performance.

 

[Unseul]

Is there something you see that'd be worth checking out? I don't want to take advantage of your time but it feels like I'd probably take more of it asking about each and every reciever i find for what i think is an ok price.

 

[lucid]

Have a look at the classifieds on AVForums.com

Here's some ads that are on the right lines IMO

(SOLD) Denon AVR1910 - £80 For Sale - Denon 1910 AVR £80 selivered | AVForums

(STILL AVAILABLE??) Yamaha RX-V765 - £70 For Sale - Yamaha RX V765 - AV receiver - 7.1 | AVForums

Both these two have multichannel inputs and HDMI.

Incidentally, I have owned an RX-V765 and it was really very good with music for an AV receiver. My front stereo speakers are JM Lab Electra 905 (£1200/pr). This amp allowed me to hear the difference between playing music from a multiformat player in standard, music-only and in pure music modes and I could tell the difference between basic and better RCA leads with it.

Access to browse the Classifieds market should be available to anyone, but you may find that the permission to reply requires you to be registered for some time and have a certain number of posts under your belt. It's much like the Members Market access restrictions here. That's a thought; have you checked Overclockers' Members Market too?


Ebay:

Denon AVR2805 (pre-HDMI, but with MCh In) - £75 DENON AVR-2805 7.1 AV SURROUND RECEIVER | eBay

Denon AVR1909 (HDMI + MCh In) - 14hrs to go @ 03:45 Sunday. Current bid around £35 Denon AVR-1909 7.1 Home Cinema Receiver | eBay

Pioneer VSX-LX52 (HDMI + MCh In) - currently £75 after 3 bids and with approx 40 hrs to go. I would expect this to fetch £150-£250 though, but might be worth a watch Pioneer VSX-LX52 7 Channel 150 Watt Receiver for sale online | eBay

Pioneer VSX-2014 (pre-HDMI, but with MCh In) - £60 but with 0 bids. Ends 14:40hrs Sunday. Bit of a beast, this one. THX specified too so it should have some grunt. You'd definitely want a Pioneer mic to go with this to take advantage of the MCACC advanced calibration features. Pioneer VSX-2014i Multi Channel Receiver fully workin with remote | eBay


Denon AVR1909 (HDMI + MCh In) - Ends Monday 18:00. Currently @ £15.70 with 0 bids. Looks to be complete with box too. Denon AVR-1909 7.1 Channel 120 Watt Receiver with all the original packaging | eBay

*** You should do your own due diligence checks with the various sellers to make sure you understand supplied accessories and the condition of the gear ***

 

[K.C. Leblanc]

Now, I'm working on the assumption that the 5 speakers still work, they're rated at 8 ohms I believe.

Might be an idea to get a multimeter and test them. Could show if there's an issue with any of the speakers.

 

[Unseul]

Amazing @lucid ! Thank you. I'm looking at the denon ones at the moment, will put in a bid on one of them, and have asked about accessories on the other. Next up will be chasing the woofer.

Might be an idea to get a multimeter and test them. Could show if there's an issue with any of the speakers.

In the end, if one or more are buggered, then I just need to spend more money regardless. Which is another way of saying that I don't have a multimeter handy, and do need to get around to buying one .

 

[lucid]

Doing a simple test of a speaker to make sure it hasn't blown is easy. All that's required is a bit of speaker cable and a 1.5v battery.

Hook up one end of the cable as normal to the speaker. Use the other two ends to connect to the battery. This bit is important: It's only a temporary touch. You're not wiring the battery up to the speaker permanently.

Polarity isn't important. You're just making a momentary contact to get the diaphragm to respond. Just a tap to make contact. The speaker will respond by making a click.


Quick questions answered.
- Is 1.5V dangerous to a speaker? In voltage terms, no. An amplifier puts out a much higher voltage when playing loud. 25-30V wouldn't be uncommon
- Is there a risk of damaging the speaker with a 1.5V battery? With a momentary touch, no. The signal is the same as a bass drum kick
- Are there any other risks if I leave the battery connected? Yes.

A music signal is low voltage AC, which means there's a wave form and the driver is constantly moving. The speaker draws a certain amount of current as the driver moves. This varies with the frequency content of the music and the volume it is played at. The speaker tries to draw current, and the amp responds by supplying it but also control it by limiting the current flow.

A battery doesn't output AC. It puts out a relatively constant voltage. We refer to it as DC. A loudspeaker is basically a coil of wire suspended in a magnetic field. Electrically it looks very similar to a a wire shorted across the speaker terminals. When you put a bit of wire across some battery terminals then the wire heats up. This is because with very little resistance in the circuit the battery will try to discharge really quickly because there's nothing to limit the current flow* In theory, a fresh 1.5V AA could discharge at anything from 4 to 7 Amps. A 4 Amp current in to an 8 Ohm resistance is roughly equivalent to 130W of power. If the speaker coil gets too hot then it will short out.

In practise there are other factors such as the battery's internal resistance and whether it can maintain the voltage level as the current goes up. However, holding the connection on to a battery for more than a few seconds wouldn't be a good idea. A brief touch is all that's needed.


* Actually, there are. But they don't become factors in time to save the coil from shorting out.

 

[Unseul]

Using the battery test would suggest one speaker has gone. Bugger. Well, onwards and cashwards!

 

[Unseul]

Sorry to double post, but I don't know if you've already read my previous post.

So, assuming nothing goes wrong, I am now the proud owner of a Denon AVR-1909 7.1 Home Cinema Receiver, that should include remote, audyssey mic and manual.

Next up! Either a woofer, or seemingly more sensibly (and expensively) a full 5.1 speaker setup.

I've seen a Harmon Kardon 5.1 setup for sale on ebay, currently quite cheap, but still 2 days to go. They're part of your recommended brands for receivers, but are they good enough for speakers too?

 

[lucid]

Those speakers are a good find.

Harman Kardon (HK) isn't so well known in the UK, but it's a big deal in the States. HK is better know for electronics rather than speakers. It's one of a slew of high-end or well-known brands under the Harmon International parent company umbrella. Other more widely known company brands present and past include JBL, Lexicon, AKG, Revel, Mark Levinson, Bang & Olufsen and Bowers & Wilkins (car audio), Infinity (speakers) and ARCAM.

The engineering side of Harman is to domestic speakers in the US what B&W and KEF are to the UK and the rest of the world. If you want to see companies doing pioneering R&D work, then these are the folk to look at.

The last couple of decades have seen quite a bit of shake-up in home cinema manufacturing. Specialist brands have been bought up by larger companies. That's partly how Harman has grown its portfolio, and now it too has been bought up. The owner of the whole lot is Samsung. That happened in 2016.

Those speakers are from sometime between 2005 and 2010 at a guess. They'd have been pitched to compete with the likes of KEF Eggs and the KEF HTS7001 system, Tannoy FX and TFX, higher-end Canton sub/sat packages in the UK. AFAIK, the original price would have been iro £350-£400. The last stocks were cleared out at £179.

 

[Unseul]

Right, basically worth a punt then!

Kef and tannoy are apparently other solid brands then? Any others?

EDIT - Hang on, I think you just listed them, I took those as to be other names Harmon Kardon operated under.

 

[Gray2233]

This might not be exactly what you're wanting to do, but how about going for a 5.0 setup and then adding the sub in a month or two?

You can pick up solid 2.0 setups like the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1's for around £30-60 a pair depending on the condition they're in. Having a quick look you can pick up the 9.CS centre for under £70-80, then whichever sub you decide to opt for. Of course this is just a suggestion, there's plenty of speaker combinations you could opt for, it just seems like you'll get more for your money in the long run. I saw your thread in the MM and it wouldn't be much more than you're looking to spend for the initial (sans the sub) setup.