Are modern performance tyres too good?

[Thomas. PLease.]

Just a bit of a thought experiment in terms of current performance tyres and interested to hear thoughts. For me part of driving and enjoying cars is feeling them near/even slightly over the limits of grip and having the car move around a bit. Rwd cars in particular where this becomes more fun.

With certain tyres I've experienced that's fairly easy to achieve and the drop off when the tyre is overcome isn't monumental.

So the question, are modern tyres like Michelin PS4S too good? The grip available appears to be huge, so the speeds are that much higher, but then the drop off in grip seems to be way more marked when it does eventually happen. Almost makes the whole thing slightly less enjoyable as it all becomes a lot more "spiky".

I guess it goes in tandem with cars having more performance as well, but interested to hear whether I'm alone in thinking this? Almost makes me want to go back to a slightly more all round tyre type and getting more driving enjoyment as opposed to outright pace.

 

[Nasher]

They normal kind are.

But the softer tyres have suffered under EU regulations (e.g. Yokohama AD07s got banned and the current AD08rs isn't as good) :/

Thing is the more grippy you make a car, the more violently it will snap when you do go over it's limit

 

[Housey]

Just add more power to unsettle them.

 

[kindai]

So the question, are modern tyres like Michelin PS4S too good? The grip available appears to be huge, so the speeds are that much higher, but then the drop off in grip seems to be way more marked when it does eventually happen. Almost makes the whole thing slightly less enjoyable as it all becomes a lot more "spiky".

From my first hand experience this isnt how PS4S behave.

This points more like a Pirelli where the give away snaps on you with little warning.

The PS4S is very progressive and get VERY vocal when you are on the limit.

 

[Thomas. PLease.]

Maybe its the car, currently an M2c which is a bit spiky anyway in terms of the way the torque comes in. I had them on an FType R rwd previously though and even in that car you had to be seriously committed to get them to break loose. That car came on Pzeros which were the opposite end of the spectrum. Laughable levels of grip especially when cold.

 

[Housey]

Ive Cup 2's and they need heat to get them performing, which on current roads is not easy. Wheel spin at big speeds keeps ones mind focused.

 

[R.P.L]

I'm currently on PS4S, and I agree with the guys saying that the breakaway is pretty progressive. I do also feel like less grip would be good in the dry though. My rims are wider than standard and to be honest I just haven't got enough power to justify that much high performance rubber on the road. I might look to switch to something slightly less grippy in the dry when I next change them.

 

[kindai]

I'm currently on PS4S, and I agree with the guys saying that the breakaway is pretty progressive. I do also feel like less grip would be good in the dry though. My rims are wider than standard and to be honest I just haven't got enough power to justify that much high performance rubber on the road. I might look to switch to something slightly less grippy in the dry when I next change them.

Just drop down to the non-S version.

 

[R.P.L]

Just drop down to the non-S version.

Yeah, the planned first step was to read up about those and see if they would do what I want

 

[Thomas. PLease.]

I'm currently on PS4S, and I agree with the guys saying that the breakaway is pretty progressive. I do also feel like less grip would be good in the dry though. My rims are wider than standard and to be honest I just haven't got enough power to justify that much high performance rubber on the road. I might look to switch to something slightly less grippy in the dry when I next change them.

Out of interest what car?

One for Kindai perhaps, is there a big difference between S and non-S?

 

[R.P.L]

Out of interest what car?

One for Kindai perhaps, is there a big difference between S and non-S?

A 350z with a remap and cat back, so only a small hike over standard power. The tyres are 255/285 F/R.

 

[kindai]

One for Kindai perhaps, is there a big difference between S and non-S?

I believe the difference is purely on the outer layer, the 4S has a larger and softer section here which is where that massive grip and progressiveness comes from. Dropping from the S to the non-S should just notch down that huge grip level to something again very progressive but a little less grippy without swinging too far in the other direction.

 

[Rroff]

On a similar note it is something I wonder about with enhanced wet grip tyres - the good ones tend to cope so well you feel confident in their ability and don't feel as much need to be cautious compared to run of the mill tyres but if you do find the limits is the situation going to be that much worse?... (I'm yet to encounter that situation).

 

[adam cool dude]

Just a bit of a thought experiment in terms of current performance tyres and interested to hear thoughts. For me part of driving and enjoying cars is feeling them near/even slightly over the limits of grip and having the car move around a bit. Rwd cars in particular where this becomes more fun.

With certain tyres I've experienced that's fairly easy to achieve and the drop off when the tyre is overcome isn't monumental.

So the question, are modern tyres like Michelin PS4S too good? The grip available appears to be huge, so the speeds are that much higher, but then the drop off in grip seems to be way more marked when it does eventually happen. Almost makes the whole thing slightly less enjoyable as it all becomes a lot more "spiky".

I guess it goes in tandem with cars having more performance as well, but interested to hear whether I'm alone in thinking this? Almost makes me want to go back to a slightly more all round tyre type and getting more driving enjoyment as opposed to outright pace.

Just use track tyres in the wet and we do get plenty of rain . Coming out of Cadwell park after watching the rally I nearly span my GT-Four and it has four wheel drive .

 

[Nasher]

Track tyres (slicks at least) just aquaplane really easily. The "road legal" type of track tyres are ok if you are careful. They aren't slick but don't have much tread.

But that is the scary suprise type of grip loss, you don't want that

 

[GhostWKD]

Pilotsport 4 (non-S) on my Noble are fantastic. Completely confident in what they're doing / how they're communicating that through feel (admittedly the Noble will help with this) and don't find they do anything too unexpected really.

The Pirelli's on my 360 by comparison are truely awful albeit a few years old - I've already ordered Pilotsports to replace them

I had Yoko A048's on an old R32 GTR; in the dry they were phenomenal, in the wet I was a passenger if I hit any puddles etc - wouldn't recommend unless most of your driving is track driving or you proactively avoid wet weather (Atom/Caterham I guess)

To answer the specific question in the OP though, isn't this why the GT86 was comparitively under-tyred?

 

[R.P.L]

Track tyres (slicks at least) just aquaplane really easily. The "road legal" type of track tyres are ok if you are careful. They aren't slick but don't have much tread.

But that is the scary suprise type of grip loss, you don't want that

Yeah, that's why I was saying that I'm willing to sacrifice dry grip specifically. I want it to be playful at the limit, rather than understeer terminally and with no warning

The Pirelli's on my 360 by comparison are truely awful albeit a few years old - I've already ordered Pilotsports to replace them

PZeros? I don't think I've ever heard anything good about them to be honest. They seem to be a real triumph of marketing over merit.

To answer the specific question in the OP though, isn't this why the GT86 was comparitively under-tyred?

Correct. I felt a bit sorry for Toyota over that, because they were trying to respond to gripes about modern cars' limits being too high, and then everyone complained that the 86 didn't have enough grip. I guess they might have gone a bit too far, but when I ran one for a couple of weeks it seemed fine for the standard power.

 

[Nasher]

The tyre choice was the reason, not the size. They used "eco" tyres on it, which let you slide it around all over the place and it did huge wheelspins off the line (and barely wore down so lasted forever). It was pretty hairy in wet+freezing temperatures, even with TC on lol. If you put PS4s etc on it, it gripped. I don't think they sell them with those tyres now though.

It probably has the optimal wheel size for the weight and power. A lot of cars have wheels which are too large, purely for bling reasons. If you look at track focused cars they use as small a wheel as they can get away with as you get better performance.

 

[SkodaMart]

Higher sidewall tyres seem to give more warning and a more progressive breakaway.
I think the move to ultra low profile tyres contribute to these observations.

 

[Muffin`]

Sticking modern sticky rubber on older cars seems to take the fun out of it, as you say having the car play around under your derriere is part of the fun of driving. Real men stick something lower down the pecking order on to ensure great classic cars drive as they should, Toyota saw the same logic with the GT86.