Race report: 'UK not deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities'

[Chuk_Chuk]

Or the outdoors:



We’re getting to a point where any activity mostly enjoyed by white people will automatically be deemed racist, because the only evidence you need is representation.

A group like that is a pretty good idea to get more black people into outdoor activities though you do end up in a weird situation were people are intentionally segregating themselves from the wider community and the implications that come along with it.

It is nice to see someone actually trying to solve the problem for once with a decent idea.

 

[FoxEye]

A group like that is a pretty good idea to get more black people into outdoor activities though you do end up in a weird situation were people are intentionally segregating themselves from the wider community and the implications that come along with it.

It is nice to see someone actually trying to solve the problem for once with a decent idea.

No it isn't. It's pushing the idea that black people need to "stick to their own kind." It's a terrible idea.

I'd get behind a targeted ad campaign encouraging black people to visit public parks. Front it with a high-profile black person if you must.

But a black-only members club is not a good idea, no matter how you spin it. We do not want that kind of thinking to take off.

"Black people should join black clubs; white people can't join black clubs - they have their own clubs."

That's positively backwards and racist thinking. That's something straight out of the bad old days in the US or South Africa, and we sure as hell don't need it here.

It's exactly the opposite of what genuine progress would look like.

 

[Skunkworks]

It is nice to see someone actually trying to solve the problem for once with a decent idea.

I’m all for that, but it always comes bundled with accusations of hostility. It’s painted as deliberate exclusion on the part of [A], rather than simple disinterest on the part of [ B].

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

No it isn't. It's pushing the idea that black people need to "stick to their own kind." It's a terrible idea.

I'd get behind a targeted ad campaign encouraging black people to visit public parks. Front it with a high-profile black person if you must.

But a black-only members club is not a good idea, no matter how you spin it. We do not want that kind of thinking to take off.

"Black people should join black clubs; white people can't join black clubs - they have their own clubs."

That's positively backwards and racist thinking. That's something straight out of the bad old days in the US or South Africa, and we sure as hell don't need it here.

It's exactly the opposite of what genuine progress would look like.

I don't agree with it being black only hence I acknowledge the issues with segregation(though very briefly). I do however agree with targeting black people with the purpose of encouraging them to participate in an activity that they would otherwise ignore.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

I’m all for that, but it always comes bundled with accusations of hostility. It’s painted as deliberate exclusion on the part of [A], rather than simple disinterest on the part of .

I agree there is no need for the accusation of hostility in the article. That the article could have easily been written without mentioning white people.

 

[Hotwired]

I've seen trails controlled by people wanting money off tourists and that's the extent of the gatekeeping I've seen in hiking and walking. Article is unnecessarily twisted.

 

[The Running Man]

I don't agree with it being black only hence I acknowledge the issues with segregation(though very briefly). I do however agree with targeting black people with the purpose of encouraging them to participate in an activity that they would otherwise ignore.

Like the all women Muslim only football team

Sure it gets muslim women out of their houses, but it doesn't exactly integrate them into wider society if it is only for Muslim women.

Sisterhood FC: Yasmin Abdullahi talks about the formation of a Muslim women's football team

My dream is to franchise Sisterhood FC around London, but then I want to take it around cities in the UK and then go international.

I often visit Sweden to visit my cousin, who lives in like a large Muslim community of around 10,000 people and I see lots of little girls wearing the hijab.

I know they don't have the same support or access as me, so imagine opening a Sisterhood FC in a place like that and how many girls I could get involved in sports. It would be a dream come true.

Yikes, reminds me of little Britain, its a local club for local people...

 

[Nitefly]

I’m not 100% sure where I stand on ‘exclusive clubs’ but I don’t think it’s as simple as they must be prohibited or excluded and I’d go further and suggest that there is at least an understandable reason as to why they exist.

Ultimately people are drawn to clubs to find like minded people to share experiences and bond with. In the case of a ‘minority only club’ I can presume the draw is that and also that each personal identity as a member amongst the others is 100% removed from the nature of that minority group (as they are all 100% from that minority, so it can be disregarded amongst themselves).

It does make you wonder what life must be like for people that feel so judged by the nature of their ‘minority characteristic’ that they find comfort in a group that is just for them.

Or putting it another way, these clubs exist because society does actually treat these minorities differently....?

Think about it.

 

[The Running Man]

I’m not 100% sure where I stand on ‘exclusive clubs’ but I don’t think it’s as simple as they must be prohibited or excluded and I’d go further and suggest that there is at least an understandable reason as to why they exist.

Ultimately people are drawn to clubs to find like minded people to share experiences and bond with. In the case of a ‘minority only club’ I can presume the draw is that and also that each personal identity as a member amongst the others is 100% removed from the nature of that minority group (as they are all 100% from that minority, so it can be disregarded amongst themselves).

It does make you wonder what life must be like for people that feel so judged by the nature of their ‘minority characteristic’ that they find comfort in a group that is just for them.

Or putting it another way, these clubs exist because society does actually treat these minorities differently....?

Think about it.

Maybe people like to be different. And want to be different.

And then say that they don't feel integrated but have made no effort to integrate.

 

[Nitefly]

Maybe people like to be different. And want to be different.

And then say that they don't feel integrated but have made no effort to integrate.

It is possible and perhaps in some cases true, but I think you’re assuming the worst.

My hunch is that such people are not inherently different from me and you, yet I suspect that neither of us, with our lives, would consider joining such an exclusive club. So it begs the question as to why they might feel so inclined to join such a club. I think it’s probably because their lives (and their relationship with their minority characteristics) are different than our lives with our own characteristics.

So whilst I can’t say I ‘fully support’ such clubs, I can sort of understand them as an artefact of the society we are as a whole.

 

[FoxEye]

I’m not 100% sure where I stand on ‘exclusive clubs’ but I don’t think it’s as simple as they must be prohibited or excluded and I’d go further and suggest that there is at least an understandable reason as to why they exist.

Ultimately people are drawn to clubs to find like minded people to share experiences and bond with. In the case of a ‘minority only club’ I can presume the draw is that and also that each personal identity as a member amongst the others is 100% removed from the nature of that minority group (as they are all 100% from that minority, so it can be disregarded amongst themselves).

It does make you wonder what life must be like for people that feel so judged by the nature of their ‘minority characteristic’ that they find comfort in a group that is just for them.

Or putting it another way, these clubs exist because society does actually treat these minorities differently....?

Think about it.

Even if you feel that way, more segregation and less integration/exposure is not going to make things better..

Also the idea that black people have been "excluded" from public parks, hence making such a club necessary? I'm not buying that! Nobody is stopping black people from using public parks.

Look there might be some racism in this country, but these policies of segregation and intentional discrimination aren't going to move us forwards. If anything, we'll go backwards. Black people feeling alienated from whites, moving in their own circles, everybody believing they are discriminated against... everybody blaming "the others" for their troubles, creating division and hostility between groups.

Whether by chance or by design, such policies will make us divided against ourselves.

 

[Nitefly]

Even if you feel that way, more segregation and less integration/exposure is not going to make things better..

*snip*

I agree with much of your post but don’t think it’s quite so absolute.

We can’t just teleport ourselves to the endgame of where we want to be (problem -> solution) because people will emotionally reject it.

Instead, it’s all a ticking pendulum and we must be collectively patient and compassionate towards one another whilst it makes it way to where we all want it to be.

It will take decades and decades. Maybe even centuries. I don’t pretend to know all the solutions, but I do think that giving a bit of leeway to others is what is going to make things actually progress.

 

[PlacidCasual]

Self selection bias accounts for many of these differences if *identity* only clubs helps that group engage in the activity hopefully their confidence will grow that they move beyond *identity* only participation.
It’s not ideal but we don’t live in an ideal World and we should be tolerant to such things if there isn’t significant harm. Not being able to join a women’s only Muslim team or black and female hiking group doesn’t really harm anyone but it does provide those people an benefit they might not otherwise get. I think society can live with those exceptions so long as self selection segregation isn’t becoming the norm.

 

[FoxEye]

Instead, it’s all a ticking pendulum and we must be collectively patient and compassionate towards one another whilst it makes it way to where we all want it to be.

I have no issues with that, but what we appear to be seeing atm, from some quarters, is not an increase in compassion. Instead it appears to be a growing hostility towards whites. The idea is definitely gaining traction, that for every undesirable outcome, whites (esp white men) and their systems of oppression are to blame. The media is full of it. Social media adds much fuel to the fire.

I'm certain that that kind of narrative isn't going to lead us to a more compassionate society. This isn't the search for answers, or the search for tolerance. If anything it will take us away from the truth, and mire us in a lie. Why are black people over-represented in the prison population? Why are black people less inclined to use public parks? "Systemic racism." No, it's not. There is a cause(s) and failing to acknowledge them because we've settled on a convenient lie isn't progress.

It's just a jolly nice scapegoating of a swathe of people, and at the same time teaching those people not to defend themselves, because to do so is itself racist!

I.e. you can't disagree that you're the problem, because to disagree is to become the problem! It's very self-fulfilling and circular. And dishonest.

 

[BowdonUK]

There as never been the same problems with race in Britain as there as have/is in the US. Yet I feel we're getting assumed to be as bad as America.

Nobody is excluding black or other ethnic minority people from the countryside. Maybe they just don't want to go?

I have a Muslim friend and we was sat in the car having a chat in the country side and he asked me "why do white people always live far out from the city?"

I think we need to see actual evidence of deliberate action of racial discrimination before assumptions are made.

 

[Bear]

I've said it once and I will say it again I'm an ethnic minority and I don't see any systemic / institutional racism. I see racism for sure but I dont see a system that is rigged against me. It is logically inconsistent to believe the UK is rigged against ethnic minorities when certain sections flourish (typically Chinese and Indians) and generally do better than the natives of the country. Why would a country be for Indians but against Pakistanis for instance and why would the system disadvantage its own young male population in pursuit of this perceived system setup against minorities, it just doesnt make sense.

If the system is meant to disadvantage minorities then it should disadvantage all minorities as that would be the goal but it is clearly not the case.

 

[Zatoichi.uK]

I've said it once and I will say it again I'm an ethnic minority and I don't see any systemic / institutional racism. I see racism for sure but I dont see a system that is rigged against me. It is logically inconsistent to believe the UK is rigged against ethnic minorities when certain sections flourish (typically Chinese and Indians) and generally do better than the natives of the country. Why would a country be for Indians but against Pakistanis for instance and why would the system disadvantage its own young male population in pursuit of this perceived system setup against minorities, it just doesnt make sense.

If the system is meant to disadvantage minorities then it should disadvantage all minorities as that would be the goal but it is clearly not the case.

Because the assumption is that if a "System" such as education, prison, high level roles in companies etc. Does not produce an equal outcome exactly in line with the population then it is de facto racist.

It appears to be the belief that all cultures are equal that drives this thinking. Whereas I think its plain to see that some cultures that focus on family, education etc do well, and others that view these things as unimportant or even to be dismantled do not.

 

[Bear]

Because the assumption is that if a "System" such as education, prison, high level roles in companies etc. Does not produce an equal outcome exactly in line with the population then it is de facto racist.

It appears to be the belief that all cultures are equal that drives this thinking. Whereas I think its plain to see that some cultures that focus on family, education etc do well, and others that view these things as unimportant or even to be dismantled do not.

If that is the basis of why people think the UK is institutionally racist then its horse **** and is no different as to why there aren't more females in Engineering. I recall watching an article on Cambridge University a while back and the number of black students and there was the general complaint as to why there weren't more black students at Cambridge. The programme asked why there weren't more than 3% of student population that were black. I then looked what the percentage of the UK population were black and it looked like it was just over 3% which would seem inline with the general population spread so pretty good representation if that is the metric people are going by, yet they were making out that 3% was a bad thing and there should be more

 

[Irish_Tom]

Anyone who thinks Dolph is an ‘equality of outcome’ type clearly isn’t familiar with his posting history.

Thanks for the laugh though — five stars, would read again.

e:SPAG

 

[Hades]

I have a Muslim friend and we was sat in the car having a chat in the country side and he asked me "why do white people always live far out from the city?"

You missed an opportunity there to reply "White flight, mate"


Joke!