New Champions League format

Caporegime
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Does getting dropped out at the group stage increase or decrease your co efficient?

Not really sure as we have been pants in Europe over the past 5 seasons bar one QF and 1 Europa League win and one semi final. Yet we are still the 8th best team in Europe and second in the country. It also looks like winning Europa is equivalent to a semi final place in the Champions League.
 
Don
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It also looks like winning Europa is equivalent to a semi final place in the Champions League.
Like everything with UEFA it's far more complicated than that. Liverpool received more coefficient points losing the final in 17/18 than we got winning the competition in 18/19 - in fact Chelsea got more poins winning the Europa than we got winning the CL that year.
 
Caporegime
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Like everything with UEFA it's far more complicated than that. Liverpool received more coefficient points losing the final in 17/18 than we got winning the competition in 18/19 - in fact Chelsea got more poins winning the Europa than we got winning the CL that year.

Maybe it goes against who you beat on the way as well? Plus if you get knocked out of the champions League and go Europa League you play an extra two games. It will all end in a stats pad as maybe going out of the champions League group stage and having a good run in Europa might be better than getting battered in the last 16.
 
Don
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It's based on how far you progress in the competition (you get slightly more points in the CL than EL for this) but also how many wins and draws you have on the way and peculiarly you get just as many points for a win (or draw) in the Europa as you do in the CL. So Chelsea picking up 5 wins and a draw from their Europa group containing Bate Borisov, Vidi & PAOK picked up more points than Liverpool did from the group stage of the CL, in a group containing Napoli & PSG as we didn't win as many games. Similarly in the knockout rounds, winning both legs vs Malmo got Chelsea more points than Liverpool winning 1 leg and drawing 1 leg vs Bayern. There's also 2 more games in the Europa (regardless of whether you drop out from the CL or not) meaning you have a chance to pick up extra points from wins that CL sides don't have.

Imo the points system is far too generous for teams in the Europa given the level of teams in the competition compared to the CL.
 
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Chelsea picking up 5 wins and a draw from their Europa group containing Bate Borisov, Vidi & PAOK picked up more points than Liverpool did from the group stage of the CL, in a group containing Napoli & PSG as we didn't win as many games. Similarly in the knockout rounds, winning both legs vs Malmo got Chelsea more points than Liverpool winning 1 leg and drawing 1 leg vs Bayern. There's also 2 more games in the Europa (regardless of whether you drop out from the CL or not) meaning you have a chance to pick up extra points from wins that CL sides don't have.

Imo the points system is far too generous for teams in the Europa given the level of teams in the competition compared to the CL.
Whilst I don't disagree that the system is too generous towards the Europa, when you are talking about the "2 more games" you need to remember that teams in the CL effectively get 5 bonus points for reaching the round of 16 (i.e. qualifyitng from their group). You get nothing for qualifying for the Europa round of 32 or round of 16, so even if you rack up two wins from those extra two games in the round of 32, you'd still get less points than a team got for qualifying from their CL group. So that extra 2 games, in an absolute best case scenario, earns you -1 points compared to a team that qualified out of their CL group. So when you talk about Chelsea getting more points against Malmo than Liverpool got vs Bayern that's not a fair comparison because the Malmo game was a last-32 fixtures with no points available other than the results; a fairer comparison would be to say that Liverpool got 5pts for literally sitting on their arses playing FIFA, more than Chelsea got for winning two matches.

NB - I'm basing this on the current UEFA rules, I could be wrong if the rules were different a couple of seasons ago :)

UEFA said:
Points system
1. Each team gets two points for a win and one point for a draw (points are halved for matches in the qualifying and play-off rounds).
2. Clubs that reach the round of 16, quarter-finals, semi-finals or final of the UEFA Champions League, or the quarter-finals, semi-finals or final of the UEFA Europa League, are awarded an extra point for each round.
3. In addition, four points are awarded for participation in the group stage of the UEFA Champions League and four points for qualifying for the round of 16.

edit: You could make an argument that the large points haul available in the Europa is arguably not helping the big boys in the grand conspiracy - they are giving a bit too much scope for 'average' teams to start squeezing out the elite.
 
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Don
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Whilst I don't disagree that the system is too generous towards the Europa, when you are talking about the "2 more games" you need to remember that teams in the CL effectively get 5 bonus points for reaching the round of 16 (i.e. qualifyitng from their group). ....
I did mention at the start of my post that you get more points for progressing through the CL than you do the EL and rightly so, it's a superior competition. The point of the post was explaining how points for wins (and draws) are just as big, if not a bigger factor to how many points you end up picking up and it's mad how a win vs Malmo is worth as much as a win vs Bayern Munich.

By the time Chelsea had reached the quarter finals of the EL they had picked up 22 (?) points, playing Bate Borisov, Vidi, PAOK, Malmo and Dynamo Kiev. By the time Liverpool had reached the quarter finals of the CL they had picked up 18 (?) points playing Red Star, Napoli, PSG and Bayern. Of course this is just an isolated example with Liverpool having a particularly hard group and opponent in the round of 16 and Chelsea being a particularly strong side by EL standards. It just highlights how a half decent side can be better off in the EL (from a coefficient pov) than in the CL due to points system and how poor the early rounds of the EL are - had Chelsea been in the CL that season it's highly unlikely that they'd have picked up nearly as many points.

The average coefficient points for the last 4 Europa League winners has been 27.5 points, just 2.5 less than the average for a losing CL finalist (I suspect more than a semi finalist) and just 5 less than the average CL winner. It's mad when you consider the level of competition.
 
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Yeah I don't disagree with the overall message, Sevilla used to rack up loads of points every year in the Europa, in fact they are still ranked the 8th best team in Europe I think.

Yes you get the same points for beating Malmo as Bayern but Bayern was in a later round of the competition so I just don't see that as a valid comparison, effectively Liverpool are getting the equivalent of a 'bye' as they go straight to last 16 not last 32, and for that they get more points than was available for playing Malmo. A fairer comparison would be last-16 games, Chelsea got more points for beating Dynamo Kiev 8-0 than Liverpool got for beating Bayern 3-1. This does seem unfair and it's surprising there is no ELO type weighting based on the ranking of your opponent.
 

fez

fez

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The EL should contribute little towards your European co-efficient. How often does a team win the EL that wasn't in the CL before missing out at the group stage? How often has a team won the EL that wasn't a sleeping giant who just had a poor season prior and found themselves in the EL instead of their usual position in the CL.

Until you get to the QF and further in the EL the teams are largely junk and even then can be quite poor.

I would give maybe less than half as many points for the EL as the CL.
 
Don
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I think 1 point for a win and 0.5 points for a draw in the Europa is a more reasonable scoring system and would take into account the difference in quality of the sides faced.
Yes you get the same points for beating Malmo as Bayern but Bayern was in a later round of the competition so I just don't see that as a valid comparison.
The point I was making wasn't about how far you progressed but simply that a win in the Europa has the same value as a win in the CL. I just picked out the first knockout rounds games as an example - I could have used the Kiev game but the point was simply to highlight how a win in a much inferior competition, vs weaking opposition, carries the same value as a win in the CL against the best sides in Europe.
 
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Yeah I completely agree on calibre of opposition but it was the 'two more games' I was originally responding to that I consider a bit of a fallacy because the CL teams get given more points for free than if they'd won both games anyway.
To use an analogy say you are a factory worker and you are annoyed at a worker in another factory being given extra hours compared to you so they can earn more money from hours you don't get the opportunity to work, but you were getting a bonus that was worth more than those hours without having to do any work.

You can definitely make an argument that the CL doesn't get enough weighting but the extra games don't even make up that difference.
 
Don
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Yeah I completely agree on calibre of opposition but it was the 'two more games' I was originally responding to that I consider a bit of a fallacy because the CL teams get given more points for free than if they'd won both games anyway.
They don't get those points for free - they get those points for progressing in a harder competition. Again, you're looking at the overall points system where as the point I was making was specifically about the points you get from wins and how it negates those points you get for progression. It's absolutely right that you should get more points for progressing in the CL than you do in the EL - the point I was making was that Europa League sides can realistically pick up just as many points as a CL side overall due to the 2 points per win system. They're playing vs far weaker opposition and get an extra 2 matches to pick up points in.
 
Caporegime
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One benefit though is that encourages teams that move from CL to Europa from the groups to take the competition more seriously. It could be toned down slightly though perhaps.
 

fez

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One benefit though is that encourages teams that move from CL to Europa from the groups to take the competition more seriously. It could be toned down slightly though perhaps.

I would have thought prize money and trophies would be enough for that. I would certainly be happy if we win the EL. I would rather win the CL or PL by miles but EL comes a fairly distant 3rd and above any domestic cup.
 
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They don't get those points for free - they get those points for progressing in a harder competition. Again, you're looking at the overall points system where as the point I was making was specifically about the points you get from wins and how it negates those points you get for progression. It's absolutely right that you should get more points for progressing in the CL than you do in the EL - the point I was making was that Europa League sides can realistically pick up just as many points as a CL side overall due to the 2 points per win system. They're playing vs far weaker opposition and get an extra 2 matches to pick up points in.
I think we're going round in circles here - the extra matches, even if you win them both are outweighed by the extra bonus you get for being in the CL. You might get less points due to playing harder opposition and I'm agreement on that issue, but that's a separate issue from the number of games.

The number of games is specifically catered for already by UEFA, it's why they are giving the CL teams some of the extra points, because they don't have a round of 32. It's basically giving every team that qualifies from their group two walkover wins in the round of 32. So absolute best case scenario the Europa league team doesn't get any advantage from their extra games. Again, they get an advantage from playing easier opponents, but NOT from playing extra games. The extra games are really just an opportunity for them to drop points. If they get a draw and a win they get 3pts from the round of 32. The teams who qualified from CL groups get 4pts by default from the round of 32.
 
Don
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I think we're going round in circles here
Yea we are but I'll try one more time to clarify my point

You're saying that the points you get for progressing in the CL cancel out the points you can get for winning those extra 2 EL games. That there is my issue. You shouldn't be able to get as many points from reaching the last 16 of the EL as you get from reaching the last 16 of the CL however a side that wins both legs of their last 32 EL game (which you'd expect a Chelsea, Utd, Liverpool of this world to do) will have reached the last 16 of the EL with just 1 fewer point than a CL side reaching the last 16 - that's before you factor in group stage wins, which a strong side in the EL would have likely won more than a CL side. That shouldn't be the case. Those extra 2 games help negate the points you get for progressing in the CL.
 
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a side that wins both legs of their last 32 EL game (which you'd expect a Chelsea, Utd, Liverpool of this world to do) will have reached the last 16 of the EL with just 1 fewer point than a CL side reaching the last 16

No. The team in the CL gets 4pts for being in the group stage. They get extra 5pts for reaching the last 16. So a total of 9pts on top of whatever results they have. The team that wins both legs of their last-32 game EL game gets 4pts for that. So if both teams win all their games, the CL team reaching last 16 is 5pts better off than the EL team reaching last 16, not 1. This 4 pts descrepancy in your workings perhaps explains why you won't acknowledge the "2 extra games" are accounted for already.

Let's conclude by saying we agree that the CL receives insufficient weighting (the EL teams should win more games, maybe even enough to outweigh the 5pt "headstart" the CL last-16 teams get - your example of Chelsea/Liverpool was a good one because Liverpool scraped through with 3 losses in the group stages whereas Chelsea had W5 D1 L0) and leave the 'extra games' piece to to one side as it's probably semantics at this stage, I don't consider them extra games because UEFA is giving all the last16 CL teams the points equivalent of two wins ON TOP of the extra weighting they already got for being the CL groups.
 
Don
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No. The team in the CL gets 4pts for being in the group stage. They get extra 5pts for reaching the last 16. So a total of 9pts on top of whatever results they have. The team that wins both legs of their last-32 game EL game gets 4pts for that. .
You've not calculated the 3 points a Europa side gets for making the group stage. I forgot to add the extra 1 point CL sides get for the round of 16 too though. So the 6 point advantage a CL side gets for general progression through the competition (which seems a reasonable difference) can be cut to 2 points (which seems unreasonable) as a result of those 2 games.

But yes, we agree with the underlying point that points system in the Europa is too generous.
 
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