Transgender MTF picked for Olympics weightlifting

[Mason-]

There are plenty of chromosomal anomalies that don't fit that statement, there's also people with intermixed organs to consider.

This is such a terrible argument. Genetic abnormalities do not make the rule incorrect.

It is entirely correct to say humans have 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, 10 fingers. But just because there are humans who don’t have have 2 arms or legs or eyes or 10 fingers doesn’t make them not human and it doesn’t make it incorrect to say “humans have 10 fingers”. There are 2 biological sexes in humans. The exception of intersex people doesn’t make this any less true. And this futile argument to apply to transgender people is weak af especially because they’re trying to argue gender is not associated with biology!

 

[Ozymandias]

But surely humans have a spectrum of the number of fingers. Not all humans are born with 10!
I could also identify myself as having less or more fingers as my self truth demands.

 

[D.P.]

Loving all the Gammon outrage here.

 

[Andrew_McP]

Loving all the Gammon outrage here.

Gammon has become the new Godwin.

 

[Mason-]

But surely humans have a spectrum of the number of fingers. Not all humans are born with 10!
I could also identify myself as having less or more fingers as my self truth demands.

If everything is a spectrum then you can’t define or describe anything in the world that is governed by genes. Therefore you can’t define anything.

If I can’t say a cat has 4 legs and 1 tail because 1 in 10 million is born with a genetic abnormality that means it had 5 legs and 2 tails. Then you can’t describe a cat. You can apply this to everything.

 

[flea.rider]

has he/she had the full job done ? if not then no .. it's a crazy world .. i know some people that changed but only half way so really can't be counted as trans

 

[dowie]

There are plenty of chromosomal anomalies that don't fit that statement, there's also people with intermixed organs to consider.

Nope, you can still look at what gametes they'd produce.

You could still classify a bunch of the intersex people as belong to one or the other or indeed issue rules re: which category they can compete in.

We've had this issue already with Semenya for example, that's a person who is essentially a male but who didn't develop properly - testes didn't descend and the penis didn't form, but the important thing is that they still have testes and high levels of testosterone and their body developed with some male advantages - whether or not they have a penis or not isn't particularly relevant in terms of athletic performance nor is their social gender!

Because intersex athletes are rare then they've been allowed we've already got some mangled rules for them - like allowing them to compete but having to lower their testosterone etc... Unsurprisingly, despite being rare, they seem to be disproportionately represented in athletics - IIRC the first 3 places in the women's 800m at a recent Olympics were questionable "women".

Perhaps going forwards some doctors will re-evaluate how they deal with intersex people, maybe cutting their junk off (or at least whatever partially developed there) at birth and raising them as a girl might not be the way forward now that we're all LGBTQIA accepting etc..

LOL exactly this...

 

[simc1978]

I did vaguely know someone who transitioned M2F, she said that the hormone change melted muscle away from her. My (perhaps ill considered) view is that after transitioning it would be a good idea to stay away from elite sport it just seems not in keeping with the Corinthian spirit, much as if you had elected to take a course of steroids.

 

[BowdonUK]

This is going to set the transgender cause back a long time, especially if this person wins.

 

[fendi]

if you don't find her sexually attractive you are also not a straight male according to reality in 2021

 

[dowie]

I just find it a really weird message that you can be born a female but banned from competing with females unless you have therapy to reduce your natural chemistry but if you're a dude and trained as a dude all of your life but then decided to transition later in life... That's A-OK.

I'm not sure that's the case, at least re: Semenya she's not really "female", she's been raised as if she was female but that's because she didn't develop a penis - she's still and XY person with internal testes, still produces plenty of testosterone (which she is at least partially sensitive to).

I mean she's basically trained all her life with male advantages too, difference between Semenya and a trans person is that Semenya has been raised as that gender identity from birth.

 

[dlockers]

<snip>

Perhaps going forwards some doctors will re-evaluate how they deal with intersex people, maybe cutting their junk off (or at least whatever partially developed there) at birth and raising them as a girl might not be the way forward now that we're all LGBTQIA accepting etc..



LOL exactly this...

'Cutting their junk off' is hardly a reasoned response to giving a baby birth right to compete in the Olympics

 

[MikeTheNative]

You never going to get a solution to this topic without upsetting some people. World Rugby decided to outright ban MtF players from the woman's game, individual countries can still have different rules though, would rules that allow trans athletes as long as they transitioned before a certain age help the situation? It might be more 'fair' but is encouraging people to transition before they are ready a good idea?

 

[robfosters]

Loving all the Gammon outrage here.

It’s not gammon outrage, it’s people with a very valid argument about fairness in sport.
What’s your opinion?

 

[200sols]

It’s not gammon outrage, it’s people with a very valid argument about fairness in sport.
What’s your opinion?

Anyone that questions the agenda = Gammon.

 

[Junglist]

I'm not sure that's the case, at least re: Semenya she's not really "female", she's been raised as if she was female but that's because she didn't develop a penis - she's still and XY person with internal testes, still produces plenty of testosterone (which she is at least partially sensitive to).

I mean she's basically trained all her life with male advantages too, difference between Semenya and a trans person is that Semenya has been raised as that gender identity from birth.

I suppose. Maybe I'm being a relic and not getting with the times. Just the Semenya thing doesn't rub me the wrong way as they were born that way. For the lack of a better word I find MTF/FTM a bit of a manufacturing process.

 

[lookitsjonno]

I'm surprised the marginal but noisy woke lot aren't gunning for "gender neutral" sport, or is that next on the agenda once they have cancelled everything else out?

 

[Zatoichi.uK]

Purely from a numbers game I'd have thought it was better to upset the incredibly low numbers of trans people in sport than the females that have to put up with it.

 

[StriderX]

Purely from a numbers game I'd have thought it was better to upset the incredibly low numbers of trans people in sport than the females that have to put up with it.

Can't sell outrage if you purposefully limit your market.

 

[potatolord]

The easy answer is to combine men's and women's competition into one.

It's kinda the "burn the house down" option, but would stop this being an issue.

 

[D.P.]

It’s not gammon outrage, it’s people with a very valid argument about fairness in sport.
What’s your opinion?

And where is the outrage that women soccer players are not paid equally as men?
Where is the outrage about PEDs

The problem is, your outrage is not about fairness, is is about transgender rights. It also isn't a particularly critical topic to get outraged about compared to catastrophic climate change for example. Your outrage is very misplaced.


As for my opinion, I think it is a complex subject that wont have a reasonable discussion on OCUK. Sports do need to be inclusive of all gender identities, and differences between hormonal environments during development need to be taken in to account. Professional sports bodies are reviewing and researching the options to make sports inclusive and fair, based on actual scientific evidence rather than the opinions of uneducated and biased