Poll: UEFA Euro 2020 Final Italy v England ** spoilers ** [Sunday 11th July 2021]

[Craterloads]

99.9%, 20%. You guys have absolutely no idea of knowing. I highly doubt though that as many as one FIFTH of all supporters are racist!

the last Man U game I went to was a European game against a Turkish side and the stand I was in the entire section chanted a racist term usually reserved for brits with Pakistani heritage at the turkish side. Was there with my 15 year old nephew and being Pakistani wasn’t a pleasant experience and can safely say will be the last match I will attend.

unfortunately it’s rife.

 

[B&W]

A lot of racist filth out there, just so many of them are undercover and at times like this they let it out. Abusing taxi drivers last night too.

You can educate all the people but **** class people will remain **** class. Some things just cant be taught in school...

 

[jonneymendoza]

I'm sick of hearing about this racist abuse, I know there are some muppets giving the lads some disgusting grief, there always will be whether its racial or like what Beckham got but I think 99.9% of the nation don't agree with it and it shouldn't be given the time of day.

There's a lot more that are racist here and everywhere in the world

 

[tommybhoy]

Are you saying that there exists no combination of England players, nor any system or formation, that could have trouble Italy last night?

Or even just from the players that Southgate took to the tournament. Out of those players, there exists no formation nor system nor tactics that would have troubled Italy?

That Italy would have dominated possession against any England formation and style. That the gulf in class is so great that England's tactics and personnel are entirely irrelevant?

Because that's a bold claim.

Well quite simply you are saying Italy had more possession and there's nothing England could have done - which I think most people would disagree with. It's not arrogant, it's just football tactics, no? Tactics/team selections get discussed to death here on a weekly basis!

Very few people said England "should win" over Italy. Yes, there were a couple. There was no agreement on that tho. The arrogance is not coming from me that's for certain.

What a lot have said is that England should have done better. You say Italy played to their strengths. Well what we're saying is that England didn't play to theirs - because Southgate is obsessed with playing a defensive game where you try not to concede above all else.

England used poor tactics and played poorly. That's all many of us are saying. We wanted to see a different style. That *might* have resulted in a better outcome. It almost certainly would have asked Italy some more questions. Just remember that your Italy team looked rattled in the early stages.

In the latter stages - after England had given up trying to attack - Italy looked comfortable. What many here are saying is it didn't have to be that way.

You can call us all arrogant for not accepting Italy wins in every scenario - but actually I'd say that's arrogance from you, to assume Italy wins in every scenario.

No, I'm not saying any of that.

England got to a final first time in my life and didn't win, yet Southgate is getting grief for trying to stop a strong Italy team?

I'm saying Italy could have ripped England a new one if they over committed going forward, pushing bodies further up the park would have over exposed your defence-which was outstanding keeping Italy out btw, Italy would have exploited it like they did other teams.

Best if we ignore him he's in Dreamland it took penalty's to beat what he evidently thinks is a poor team, not sure what that says about Italy's performance. He also chose Italy over Scotland well because the answers simple, don't blame him either.

Where did I say England was a poor team?

Never ever choose Italy over Scotland, it's horrible when they play each other, been to see them play each other once and that was enough because of the **** I had to listen to on the night.

 

[HangTime]

OK I'm going to write something that could be construed as mildly controversial so I'm going to open by saying that I am not looking to belittle the issue of racism, imply that it doesn't exist, or suggest it doesn't warrant serious investigation.

I've got to say, I'm genuinely surprised by how big a story this racist angle has become. Not that I think it should be brushed under the carpet, far from it, but I think there could be an element of people looking for somewhere to direct their anger and disappointment. Every time England gets knocked out, there needs to be a backlash against somebody - whether that's the manager, certain players, the ref, cheating opposition etc etc. And this time the 'target' (I'm not going to say scapegoat, as that might infer innocence) of that anger is the racists, deflecting attention away from the team.

Now I'm not going to go down the conspiracy theory route yet (although the above breakdown from dowie is interesting) but just noting that this racism story really blew up out of nowhere and suddenly is the big talking point. Again to reiterate I'm not saying it shouldn't be talked about, but the fact it was the #1 sports story within hours of England playing in a final did stand out to me, considering there was little racism at the actual ground (afaik) which is usually what triggers a big story.

 

[Rroff]

There is a certain amount of that - a lot of people on my Facebook feed have become fixated on the incident of Saka's shirt being pulled to an extreme extent as if somehow if that hadn't happened we'd have won.

 

[davejh666]

No, I'm not saying any of that.

I'm saying Italy could have ripped England a new one if they over committed going forward, pushing bodies further up the park would have over exposed your defence-which was outstanding keeping Italy out btw, Italy would have exploited it like they did other teams.



Where did I say England was a poor team?

Never ever choose Italy over Scotland, it's horrible when they play each other, been to see them play each other once and that was enough because of the **** I had to listen to on the night.

Difference of opinion though. I, like many others have said, think England did not play to their strengths. And that can be said throughout the whole of the tournament. England's strength isn't their defence. England's strength is going forward: Kane, Sterling, Sancho, Grealish, Foden, Rashford, Saka. Chiellini said in the press conference those 'bench' players could have got England to a final.

I think what Southgate feared, and not quite in the same way you eluded to, was that our defence wasn't strong enough to win games unless we played with 2 defensive midfielders. By doing that, by playing Rice and Phillips, especially with 3 central defenders, is basically just letting the opposition have the ball, and time and again it has been proven that at International level you can not allow the opposition to have 60%+ possession. Southgate didn't react quick enough, just as he didn't react quick enough against Croatia in the world cup. I think he has done a good job, considering we lost to Iceland in the last Euro's. He has bought a sense of belief and pride in the national team. I do have my doubts though that he has the mentality to win a major trophy.

Italy were by far the best team last night, no doubts. But to say they would have ripped England a new one is well over the top! Yes they beat a poor Turkish and Swiss side easily, but struggled massively against Wales, struggled against Austria and Belgium. To be honest, other than the Semi-Final against Spain, Italy's run was no harder than England's. England got lucky with the Semi-Final draw.

 

[wildman]

OK I'm going to write something that could be construed as mildly controversial so I'm going to open by saying that I am not looking to belittle the issue of racism, imply that it doesn't exist, or suggest it doesn't warrant serious investigation.

I've got to say, I'm genuinely surprised by how big a story this racist angle has become. Not that I think it should be brushed under the carpet, far from it, but I think there could be an element of people looking for somewhere to direct their anger and disappointment. Every time England gets knocked out, there needs to be a backlash against somebody - whether that's the manager, certain players, the ref, cheating opposition etc etc. And this time the 'target' (I'm not going to say scapegoat, as that might infer innocence) of that anger is the racists, deflecting attention away from the team.

Now I'm not going to go down the conspiracy theory route yet (although the above breakdown from dowie is interesting) but just noting that this racism story really blew up out of nowhere and suddenly is the big talking point. Again to reiterate I'm not saying it shouldn't be talked about, but the fact it was the #1 sports story within hours of England playing in a final did stand out to me, considering there was little racism at the actual ground (afaik) which is usually what triggers a big story.

sorry but it is not of of nowhere. The unpleasant truth is that there is a nasty underbelly of racism that still lives in the UK which comes screaming to the surface when people lose their **** at results they don't like, it happens at all levels and the people in positions of authority do very little to try and honestly sort it out.

 

[watercooledman]

Geez it's only a game some vile people out there.

 

[Somnambulist]

While there are still some tards in this country Southgate himself said most of the racist stuff posted on social media was coming from overseas. I know from looking yesterday a lot of the abuse was from non-english speaking accounts that seemed only capable of resorting to banana and monkey emojis.

"For some of them to be abused is unforgivable really. I know a lot of that has come from abroad, people that track those things have been able to explain that, but not all of it."

Not 100% obviously but the downside with social media is even if it's a tiny % of people, comment sections give them a place to congregate and post all at the same time for everyone to see amplifying the effect, whilst these people hide behind burner accounts. Even creating bots to abuse players when prompted isn't that hard these days.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414666291944828932

 

[HangTime]

sorry but it is not of of nowhere. The unpleasant truth is that there is a nasty underbelly of racism that still lives in the UK which comes screaming to the surface when people lose their **** at results they don't like, it happens at all levels and the people in positions of authority do very little to try and honestly sort it out.

I think you misunderstood, I'm not saying racism has come out of nowhere, I'm saying the media storm over it went from zero to 100 in just a few hours, which is quite unusual when there is not a physical incident at matches.
I know it has had heightened focus over the past year due to BLM et al but even so, players getting abused online was something that was normally talked about and vilified without becoming the all encompassing headline above and beyond the sporting backdrop [I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just different than usual/expected].

 

[tommybhoy]

Difference of opinion though. I, like many others have said, think England did not play to their strengths. And that can be said throughout the whole of the tournament. England's strength isn't their defence. England's strength is going forward: Kane, Sterling, Sancho, Grealish, Foden, Rashford, Saka. Chiellini said in the press conference those 'bench' players could have got England to a final.

I think what Southgate feared, and not quite in the same way you eluded to, was that our defence wasn't strong enough to win games unless we played with 2 defensive midfielders. By doing that, by playing Rice and Phillips, especially with 3 central defenders, is basically just letting the opposition have the ball, and time and again it has been proven that at International level you can not allow the opposition to have 60%+ possession. Southgate didn't react quick enough, just as he didn't react quick enough against Croatia in the world cup. I think he has done a good job, considering we lost to Iceland in the last Euro's. He has bought a sense of belief and pride in the national team. I do have my doubts though that he has the mentality to win a major trophy.

Italy were by far the best team last night, no doubts. But to say they would have ripped England a new one is well over the top! Yes they beat a poor Turkish and Swiss side easily, but struggled massively against Wales, struggled against Austria and Belgium. To be honest, other than the Semi-Final against Spain, Italy's run was no harder than England's. England got lucky with the Semi-Final draw.

Again, that's not what I said

I'm saying Italy could have ripped England a new one if they over committed going forward, pushing bodies further up the park would have over exposed your defence-which was outstanding keeping Italy out btw, Italy would have exploited it like they did other teams.

I get it with opinions and all that, but Southgate got England to the final-by playing to his teams strengths

England's whole midfield had to play defence last night for large parts of that game, maybe I'm not making it clear.

https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/match/2024491--italy-vs-england/statistics/?iv=true

Can someone educate me on how you go about telling a team to go for it, we'll change shape/formation and commit guys when the other team is pushing you into your last third of the pitch so hard you are pegged back and can't get out into the other teams half as you kept turning over balls straight back to the Italians?

And Italy struggled all the way to the final?LOL

Never ever have the TV pundits remotely given Italy a fifth of the plaudits they have this year, so I'll take that bit as sour grapes as I'm still on cloud 9.

 

[wildman]

I think you misunderstood, I'm not saying racism has come out of nowhere, I'm saying the media storm over it went from zero to 100 in just a few hours, which is quite unusual when there is not a physical incident at matches.
I know it has had heightened focus over the past year due to BLM et al but even so, players getting abused online was something that was normally talked about and vilified without becoming the all encompassing headline above and beyond the sporting backdrop [I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just different than usual/expected].

So you think the media shouldn't cover it as much ? why out of interest ? If they were your kids and they had people online abusing them or defacing pcitures of them etc what would you want to do about it ?

The fact that both Johnson and Patel decided to effectively give carte blanche to the racists through their dog whistling about booing when the players take a knee is what is likely to have been the accelerant for the media to take this from 0 to 100 in hours.

 

[HangTime]

I specifically stated "I'm not saying this is right or wrong", and in the previous post:
"I am not looking to belittle the issue of racism, imply that it doesn't exist, or suggest it doesn't warrant serious investigation."
"Not that I think it should be brushed under the carpet, far from it"
"Again to reiterate I'm not saying it shouldn't be talked about"
...so it's not valid for you to suggest I think the media shouldn't cover it as much. So your first two questions are null, to answer the third question however if my kids were being abused online my personal reaction would be a private matter for my family and the relevant authorities, and I wouldn't expect it to be headline news in any event.

One of the most frustrating things about discussions like this is no matter how many caveats you put in posts some people often want to jump to conclusions and twist the conversation round to a target agenda. I can't spell it out any clearer than I have in my two previous posts, in multiple places, me stating surprise at a media reaction is not tantamount to me condoning the behaviour that triggered the reaction, or saying it shouldn't be talked about, and if people just ignore that it's a bit pointless continuing the conversation as they'll be trying to engage in a debate with someone who doesn't hold the viewpoint they incorrectly perceive them to hold.

edit: The Johnson / Patel thing I don't think fully explains it, in my mind that feels more like the extra wood chucked on the fire once it's already in full swing rather than the accelerant, with Mings bringing it up and Starmer using it for political point scoring. I mean, they were out of order right? Yet it was a smaller news story back then. That's kind of what I'm getting at, the response from senior politicians to the taking of the knee wasn't such a bushfire story, it got reported on at the time and rightly so but had largely faded into the background in the past couple of weeks. It gets picked up on again because it ties in with the narrative, of course.

I guess to put it another way, and play devils advocate, why weren't previous stories of abuse covered to a more extreme level in the media? If I were to be a hypocrite and put words in people's mouths, I could ask why people thought it was acceptable for online racist abuse to NOT be headline news? Why because a few people have just played in the Euro final is it suddenly such a newsworthy story when it has sometimes just got modest coverage, perhaps a little Ian Wright interview or whatever in the past?!? Is it only heroes playing in the final that deserve the attention, never mind all the other numerous people subjected to abuse? I'm being a bit flippant here, I understand that by making an example of this they can leverage it to help more people in future, raise awareness etc, but the point remains about why previous occurrences weren't subject to more attention.

 

[davejh666]

Again, that's not what I said



I get it with opinions and all that, but Southgate got England to the final-by playing to his teams strengths

England's whole midfield had to play defence last night for large parts of that game, maybe I'm not making it clear.

https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/match/2024491--italy-vs-england/statistics/?iv=true

Can someone educate me on how you go about telling a team to go for it, we'll change shape/formation and commit guys when the other team is pushing you into your last third of the pitch so hard you are pegged back and can't get out into the other teams half as you kept turning over balls straight back to the Italians?

And Italy struggled all the way to the final?LOL

Never ever have the TV pundits remotely given Italy a fifth of the plaudits they have this year, so I'll take that bit as sour grapes as I'm still on cloud 9.

I really don't see how you are finding so difficult to understand, or maybe you are just being obtuse, not sure.

Had we not played with 2 defensive midfielders and instead, for example, played one (either Rice or Phillips - it matters not) and Mount and Bellingham (again for example) alongside them, matched up with Italy's 3 in midfield do you think your midfield would have had as much time on the ball and therefore as much possession? That's the point England's whole midfield didn't have to play defence last night had we played a different way.

We are saying, or at least I am, we DIDN'T play to our strengths. Our defence is not our strength. Again, not sure how that is difficult to understand. We have some of the best attacking talent in Euorpe, how is playing defensive playing to our strengths? As I said previous I understand why Southgate did it, to cover for a weaker area of the team, but I personally don't feel that was the best way forward.

I didn't say Italy struggled all the way to the final; I said they struggled to beat Wales, Austria & Belgium - is that not correct either?

 

[dowie]

sorry but it is not of of nowhere. The unpleasant truth is that there is a nasty underbelly of racism that still lives in the UK which comes screaming to the surface when people lose their **** at results they don't like, it happens at all levels and the people in positions of authority do very little to try and honestly sort it out.

Yeah but you’ve also just seen how easily it is manipulated, you completely fell for it yourself hook line and sinker when the supposed second account in question is seemingly some LARPer/false flag posting multiple racist tweets for attention while pretending to be some Estate Agent who himself seems to have posted a dodgy tweet. Screen shots of those have gone viral all day.

We live in a country of over 60 million people, even if we got racism down to a tiny % it only takes a few idiots + some bots/overseas trolls mimicking them to do what occurred today… it will be instantly amplified by the media as racism is a current hot topic for them.

In reality the UK is probably one of the most tolerant countries on the planet, other European countries have literal fascist gangs among their football supporters and far right politicians in parliament that make UKIP look like liberals. And frankly most of the rest of the world, Asia, Africa, South America is way way more racist.

But so long as there are at least a handful of public incidents then those can be amplified and the perception can persist.

 

[lsg1r]

I specifically stated "I'm not saying this is right or wrong", and in the previous post:
"I am not looking to belittle the issue of racism, imply that it doesn't exist, or suggest it doesn't warrant serious investigation."
"Not that I think it should be brushed under the carpet, far from it"
"Again to reiterate I'm not saying it shouldn't be talked about"
...so it's not valid for you to suggest I think the media shouldn't cover it as much. So your first two questions are null, to answer the third question however if my kids were being abused online my personal reaction would be a private matter for my family and the relevant authorities, and I wouldn't expect it to be headline news in any event.

One of the most frustrating things about discussions like this is no matter how many caveats you put in posts some people often want to jump to conclusions and twist the conversation round to a target agenda. I can't spell it out any clearer than I have in my two previous posts, in multiple places, me stating surprise at a media reaction is not tantamount to me condoning the behaviour that triggered the reaction, or saying it shouldn't be talked about, and if people just ignore that it's a bit pointless continuing the conversation as they'll be trying to engage in a debate with someone who doesn't hold the viewpoint they incorrectly perceive them to hold.

I read it how you intended

One of the things I've noticed of late is that newspapers (and to a point the news) are resorting to hyperbole or sensationalist headlines (even more so with the red top ones) far more than they used to, partly due to the fact they don't have a lot of 'news' to report on and partly due to them needing to sell papers. Because most people are now grabbing the news online for 'free' the papers are now targeting the easily lead and/or offended readers with the headlines that will get their attention.

The likelihood is the actual amount that has happened isn't that much different to before, they're just being reported in a more 'vigorous' way.

I will say that online trolling and abuse might not even be from people from the UK, it could be people jumping on the bandwagon from other countries as well....the biggest issues here is that most social media is a complete mess and doesn't do enough to curb the 'negative' side of it.

Better put the caveats in... I do not support racism/abuse in any way shape or form, the football fans should be ashamed of their actions and the events that went on up to, during and after the football matches. It really doesn't give a good impression of the UK that's for sure.

 

[Slam62]

Taking the knee seems to be working then.

 

[Kaapstad]

While there are still some tards in this country Southgate himself said most of the racist stuff posted on social media was coming from overseas. I know from looking yesterday a lot of the abuse was from non-english speaking accounts that seemed only capable of resorting to banana and monkey emojis.



Not 100% obviously but the downside with social media is even if it's a tiny % of people, comment sections give them a place to congregate and post all at the same time for everyone to see amplifying the effect, whilst these people hide behind burner accounts. Even creating bots to abuse players when prompted isn't that hard these days.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414666291944828932

Totally disagree with that twitter post.

If you really want to see how bad things are in this country there is a very easy way to test.

Just tell a joke involving Racism in a group of people and see how many laugh.

The result will be a big percentage of them which makes the 0.1% figure look like a fantasy.

Until we admit the figure in this country is far bigger than 0.1% we are not going to move forward.

 

[robfosters]

This whole racism thing seems to have developed into a big blaming exercise, where everyone is just using it to have a pop at the government. Find it quite bizarre.