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Caporegime
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fullfat said:
whats that got to do with it? driving :confused: hobbies :confused: job :confused:
i dont play any other game that requires monthly fee's, i think its a joke tbh that you have to buy the game and then pay a rental sort of fee for it.
i knew what i said above would stir up some fuss, but at the end of the day its my choice and i wont be paying monthly fee's for gaming.
Do you play CS/BF2/Any Other Random Multiplayer Game? Who pays for the Servers?
 
Man of Honour
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Dj_Jestar said:
Do you play CS/BF2/Any Other Random Multiplayer Game? Who pays for the Servers?
Exactly.
Plus on a game server for any of those style of games, they'll hold a maximum of around 20-40 people, that can be handled by a desktop system, compare that then to an MMORPG server, there's a hell of a lot more players and things going on.

Still, never going to get me playing the game, housemate played it a lot, don't want to turn into him, he smells.
 
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Dj_Jestar said:
Do you play CS/BF2/Any Other Random Multiplayer Game? Who pays for the Servers?

but whats driving or a job got to do with it?
ive given up this argument as its clear that some people it suits to pay each month and others it doesnt, id rather not pay each month as it feels like a royal rip off. but if you can please let me know wtf driving or working has to do with this... itd be an end of it
 
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Soldato
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fullfat said:
but whats driving or a job got to do with it?
ive given up this argument as its clear that some people it suits to pay each month and others it doesnt, id rather not pay each month as it feels like a royal rip off. but if you can please let me know wtf driving or working has to do with this... itd be an end of it

Well it's a royal rip off for you, not for us. If you don't like it then don't buy it or even consider it. When you play BF2,CS,COD2 etc it's all payed for by other people you play ie. the servers you play on.

I myself don't see the comparison either, so that's one thing i agree with you about.
 
Soldato
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so far theres 2 groups in this thread;
group a) pays monthly subscriptions because they understand that nothing is for free and know that they'll receive hours of entertainment for a small cost.

group b) leechers. wants everything free and expects other people to pay for their entertainment for them.
 
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Unless readily accessible new instances give even better loot than this, many players would completely ignore them. Raid instances along the way in leveling simply aren't viable, as raids cut experience by half. Further, the only reason guilds can get 40 players to go do Molten Core is because there are many, many 60s in the game, at least when compared to the number of players at exactly, say, level 37. The only sensible thing that I see to do with instances like Zul'Gurub, 20-man Ahn'Qiraj, and Molten Core is to heavily nerf the mobs to make the instances 5-man, raise their levels so that the loot the instance drops is suitable for the level without changing items, reduce drop rates, and remove the raid lockout. That would at least get some utility out of the instances, rather than Blizzard having spent all that time designing instances that even raiders who happen to pick up the game after the expansion can never see. Furthermore, the 40-man component is hardly the only problem with raids in their present formulation. If they were to make the end-game instances 5-man, but keep all the other problems, would that make for a fun instance? Raid lockouts, exotic resistance requirements, prescheduling, regrouping on multiple days, pigeonholed class functions, forced respecs, reputation grinds, DKP, guild drama, and killing the same mobs in the same orders using the same tactics week after week after week in a 5-man instance? No thanks. If that's what it takes, the mobs can keep their epics for all I care. If the problem with the existing raiding end-game is that it's a boring time sink, then what is gained by offering the alternative of another boring time sink? Should a 60 with 100 days /played who still has trouble with Ragefire Chasm get epics just because he's a 60 with 100 days /played? If you got a thousand characters to level 5, would you expect epics for that? Emphasizing time spent over skill leads to mind-numbingly repetitive content, which is exactly what should be avoided. Surely it is better to spend that time creating real content even if it means only one boring end game path instead of several. Perhaps for whatever the final expansion Blizzard has planned, it would make sense to have multiple end-game paths, so that players could advance to the very best gear via 40-man raids, 5-man groups, solo content, or whatever mix they prefer. But in the until then, it doesn't make sense to overdo the end-game content which will need a major overhaul later, instead of real content which will remain useful for as long as the game exists, and without needing to be completely rebalanced. Another alternative would be to have no end-game at all. Put no raid instances or reputation grinds into the game, so that once you finish Stratholme, Scholomance, Dire Maul, Blackrock Depths, and Blackrock Spire, you're done. There's nothing left to do. That would be like Blizzard telling players, congratulations, you have beaten the game. Now you should cancel your account and go do something else. For obvious business reasons, they can't do that. Let's not forget that Blizzard is playing a game too, here. They're trying to make as much money as they possibly can. This isn't an anti-capitalist rant; that's a good thing, not a bad thing. If Blizzard didn't care about money, they wouldn't care what players want, and certainly wouldn't adjust the game based on player demands. If you don't see the difference between this and what they do now, I suggest you go apply for some permit at a government agency sometime. It doesn't matter much which agency, so long as it isn't dependent on customer satisfaction for its budget. Indeed, Blizzard trying to make money is the reason they made the popular level 1-59 section of the game the way they did. Blizzards great insight was that, even if it was necessary for the game to be painful grinding once the content had run out, many players didnt want the painful grinding stage to begin somewhere around level 3. So they postponed it all the way until players had done nearly everything there was to do, and players loved it. That is a big reason why the game has six million or so subscribers, and the company has (hopefully) made millions of dollars in profit. But players see that the grinding can be postponed, and want it postponed further, or put off indefinitely. A company that found a way to do that in a stereotypical MMORPG with heavily scripted content would make oodles of money off it. But trying that is perhaps a holy grail type of mission, and one for which neither Blizzard nor anyone else on the planet has a solution. However, Blizzard knew that they could only add so much real content to the game, without making a bunch of ill-conceived garbage. The problem they faced was how to get players to keep subscribing after they have run out of content, or more commonly, skipped most of it. Their solution was the current raiding end-game. Look carefully, and you'll notice that that is exactly what the existing 40-man raids are built for, more so than to provide an interesting challenge. There is the raid lockout, for example, so that a guild can't kill Onyxia 5 times per day and get everyone his tier 2 helm in a week, but rather, the raid "content" lasts much longer, even after Onyxia goes on farm status. There are the specialized resistance gear requirements, so that players have to spend much time farming for gear which is useless outside the instance in question in order to do the raid. The 40-man requirement itself forces much time to be spent on organizing and trying to build guilds rather than raiding. And the most clever part of this is that if only so much time per week can be spent advancing a "main", it pushes players to create alts, to go back and redo content in a different way with a different class, or perhaps even go do content they skipped the first time around. That is, it pushes players to go do something fun. Imagine that. Doing the same thing over and over and over again for loot is not real content. Forty main raids simply aren't real content in the sense that, say, Scarlet Monastery or Hillsbrad Foothills are. If any raiders want to disagree with that, then would you seriously clear Molten Core a dozen times per character if it dropped no loot, epic or otherwise? Not coincidentally, the same can be said of the various reputation grinds in the game. After all, without epic rewards, players simply wouldn't do a very small subset of the content over and over and over again, even if it's the big bad end boss of the game, as it simply isn't fun. So what about the epics? Doesn't it seem odd that, with the exception of pvp rank 14 weapons (a time sink and a half in itself), all high level epics come from 40-man raids? Well, not really. Blizzard put the "end-game" raids into the game to provide something to do for their less creative players, and prefers that players go raiding rather than canceling accounts. Putting the best loot in the game there ensures that the appropriate type of players will spend the desired amount of time in such instances, and hence keep their subscriptions active. Ill concede that the loot gap between raid and non-raid gear is awfully large and perhaps unnecessarily so; surely item level 60 epics for tier 1 and 67ish for tier 2 would have been high enough to push the players who want the best gear to raid for it. But the point remains that the best gear has to come from the end-game pseudo-content that Blizzard creates solely in an effort to prevent players from cancelling when they rationally ought to. After all, most raiders are there for the epics, not for the challenge. Most won't say so, but many implicitly admit it when they argue that 40-man raids have to give drastically better loot than 5-man instances or else people wouldn't bother to do them. Suppose that there were a "tier 3" legendary set for each class in the game right now. The only way to get it is to press the "q" key once per second for eight hours straight. You can't macro it, and if you take a break for two seconds, you fail and have to start over. Would you do it? Surely you know as well as I do that a lot of players would. Furthermore, if Blizzard later created alternate methods to get comparable gear, there would be an outcry from the people who already had the legendary set of how this was unfair, and the other people who wanted legendaries should have to "earn" their gear by severely damaging their wrists. And yet, at risk of some of the more outspoken raiders not understanding this example, I should hope that it isn't necessary to explain why such a set is spectacularly bad game design. And really, the concept of "earning" gear is quite a preposterous one. You "earn" things by doing something you don't want to do, in order to get something you want. If you aren't fortunate enough to have a job you love, then your job may still be worth doing in order to get enough money to buy an online game subscription--and not starve. For things that need to be done, such exchanges to make doing work worthwhile are quite useful. But this is an online game, played for entertainment. If there are people starving in the world, it's not because your guild took too long to get enough fire resistance gear to take down Ragnaros. Computer games are supposed to be fun. The content along the way, and in particular, the means by which gear is obtained, ought to be fun in itself. To make yourself miserable in order to get epics in a game that you fundamentally hate cannot be "worth it" in any sane sense. It is a rather maddening human tendency that people want epics, regardless of the means by which they are obtained. Raiders often accuse non-raiders of wanting easy epics. Usually they're right. It actually goes further than this, as what many players want is not merely easy epics for themselves, but also for other players to not get easy epics. But raiders want easy epics, too. So I'm not a raider and I don't have any epics. Poor me, right? Well, I had a few but I sold them on the auction house. But really, for what do I need epics? Do I need epics for Stratholme, or Scholomance, or Dire Maul? How about for Silithus, or Winterspring, or Eastern Plaguelands? Of course not. I would need epics for Blackwing Lair or 40-man Ahn'Qiraj, except that I just said I'm not a raider. There are no gear requirements in order not to do an instance. he purpose of getting loot is to be well-equipped for future challenges. But there is only a finite amount of content in the game. At some point, there are no future challenges worth doing--meaning that at that point, loot becomes worthless. Many players have gone past that point without realizing it, and still want more and better epics. You can see them whining about it here every day. So what about pvp? Isn't it unfair if one player is in all blue gear and has to fight another decked out in Blackwing Lair and 40-man Ahn'Qiraj epics? Yep, pvp is unbalanced. Duh. It's supposed to be unbalanced. You should have figured this out by the time you got your first character to level 2. Half the point of the leveling in a leveling game with pvp is to intentionally make the pvp unbalanced. If you don't like that, then don't pvp. Problem solved. It goes back to how players want easy epics for themselves and not for others. Players want to win, and hence want winning to be based on whatever it needs to be based on in order for them to win. For players with more free time than skill, there are leveling games where whoever has the most free time wins. If you're looking for combat where the winner is based on skill, you're terribly lost. Try looking for a game with no concept of experience levels. Blizzard makes pvp unbalanced because that's what players want. They have to deal with that reality in order to make money. As the saying goes, the customer is always right. And that's why complaining about pvp imbalances is stupid. Besides, if Blizzard were to implement all of the nerfs that players have called for when thinking of pvp, it would make much of the pve content horrendously difficult. And that would give players yet another topic on which to whine. What other reasons are there to get epics, apart from pvp and pve uses? Ego, perhaps? While I tend to pity those who make a huge deal about either leveling or getting some particular drop, as though it were some great accomplishment, this doesn't make much sense, either. Suppose that Blizzard were to add a new legendary set for each class which was undeniably the best gear in the game. All that players have to do to get it is upon reaching level 60 is to complete a trivial quest line which basically consists of the quest giver repeatedly asking the player if he is certain that he wants the set. There's one big catch, though: once you get the legendary set, you can never again enter an instance. No battlegrounds, no raid zones, no group zones, no solo farming instances, even. That is, you can get the set, but can't use it much. Interested? If the players who want gear want it for something other than pvp or pve use, then surely this would be quite a popular set, don't you think? I can sympathize with non-raiders who want more non-raiding content added to the game. What I can't sympathize with is the people who use exploits to trivialize (and hence essentially skip) the existing content, and then complain that they've run out of things to do. You've seen what I'm talking about: take a 40 into Deadmines and a 60 into Scarlet Monastery. Such people would take an 80 into Scholomance if they could, but they can't, so instead, they take 10 players into a 5-man zone. And now that exploit is being cut off as well in patch 1.10, and they're screaming about it. Amusing. It's not hard to find the problems with the people you don't like, and raiders have jumped on this to point out how ridiculous it is. They're right, of course. Where they go wrong is in claiming that non-raiders asked for epics for hard non-raiding content and are now complaining about it. The non-raiders who are complaining about the changes of patch 1.10 are not the same people who wanted actual challenges in non-raiding content, such as having to pay attention. So let it be known, I'm not a raider and I don't want easy epics. What I want is to be able to attack one challenge until I get tired of farming it (and I have very little tolerance for grinding of any sort), and then, as a result of having completed the previous challenge (and the ones before it), to be properly equipped for the next. Whether the gear involved is green, blue, purple, or orange doesn't matter much. And I do want the challenges to be, well, challenging, as opposed to monotonous time sinks. I routinely turn players away from groups I form for being too high level. A 56 wants to run Maraudon, or a 38 Razorfen Kraul? Not with me, they won't. Five man caps on five man instances are great. I wish Blizzard would fix the overleveled exploit and not let players more than 10 levels apart enter the same instance together, too. Finally, I want for there to be a next challenge. Even if it's called an expansion. The game doesnt need more time sinks. It needs more real content. Lets let Blizzard create that without getting all antsy in the meantime about not being able to find a boring time sink that isnt, well, a boring time sink.
 
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103 played on my main Rogue (60 ofc)
16 played on my alt Warrior (60 though!)
44 played on my ex - Undead Mage (60) I deleted it to be alliance on my server (PVP)

I really need to stop playing -.- ... as soon as I start dating this girl I have my eye on goodbye WoW =)

On a good note we got the Anub'rekhan boss dead in Naxxramas today!
 
Associate
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Paramount's post was also posted on the US WoW forum over a week ago:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1217467&p=20

So he or she *may* not be to blaim for lacking punctuation (sp?)

Regarding the cost Fullfat, you're not really comparing like-with-like, at least not as far as I understand all this. Most FPS games have servers that have what, 16?, people at once, and separately, and are run by people's goodwill. There may be a few people updating the game but, unless they are creating a major upgrade, not that much- more fixing bugs. (May be totally wrong here, apologies to all you FPS devs!)

MMORPGs are running multiple servers with hundreds to thousands playing at once, with all the overheads that involves, have on-going Customer Support (in theory;) ) and with developers working full-time creating new features. Fair enough if you don't want to pay £8 a month, but remember someone is paying for the servers you play on.

However, considering the amount of money Blizzard are raking in from WoW, their servers suck, and they do need to divert a little bit of their profit to the hardware!
 
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Associate
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ok, so what about guildwars?

no monthly fee,
loads of people all on servers with no sole player footing the bill,
the game gets updates,
the game also gets little bonuses such as the dragon festival thats currently being used.

so if that is what youre getting for just the price of the game, why are they not charging a monthly 'rental' fee.
 
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fullfat said:
ok, so what about guildwars?

no monthly fee,
loads of people all on servers with no sole player footing the bill,
the game gets updates,
the game also gets little bonuses such as the dragon festival thats currently being used.

so if that is what youre getting for just the price of the game, why are they not charging a monthly 'rental' fee.
I'll stop you right at "the game gets updates"

World of Warcraft had a rather huge patch a few days back and it does get updates... -.-

And World of Warcraft always has little festivals such as the Fire festival which is on now, last time we had Christmas which let us do Santa quests and stuff! also got Snowballs which can knock other players down on their arses.

But then again I'm guessing you've never played the game fully judging from your comments.
 
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so guildwars is similar to WoW then right? with added content along the way and patches/updates etc. i wasnt trying to say that WoW didnt get them, i know they do, just pointing out that other games can do it without fee's. as the other list of games was thrown out
 
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fullfat said:
so guildwars is similar to WoW then right? with added content along the way and patches/updates etc. i wasnt trying to say that WoW didnt get them, i know they do, just pointing out that other games can do it without fee's. as the other list of games was thrown out
Well as said the money is mainly because of the servers and I've read something about Guild Wars servers acting a lot differently to the way the WoW servers work (Something about dungeons being hosted on the party leaders connection or something) if thats true then I'm glad WoW is a monthly fee where the dungeon is hosting on the WoW servers only.

Though I have no idea if this is correct.
 

dun

dun

Soldato
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Dont really want to argue for the pros/ cons of paying for wow as it seems youve got it covered but what u mean by driving/ hobbies is that take a car for example, once you buy it that isnt it you can just jump in and away you go. You have to pay for your insurance, tax, maintenance, petrol everywhere you go. Same with other hobbies. Do you see my point? Just because you bought the game doesnt entitle it to be free to play forever as life doesnt work liek that :)
 
Soldato
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Anim said:
so far theres 2 groups in this thread;
group a) pays monthly subscriptions because they understand that nothing is for free and know that they'll receive hours of entertainment for a small cost.

group b) leechers. wants everything free and expects other people to pay for their entertainment for them.

I dont think anyone wants to listen to reason. I am not a `leecher` as I pay a monthly fee for the game and enjoy the game. So I am not bad mouthing the actual game.

I was purely making a comment, which I am entitled to as a subscriber that I think that it is wrong to make additional charges to the ones that I am already paying.

At the end of the day they are a company that is in it for the money and that is what they are doing. Personally I think that they are double billing us for this update to the game.

Yes it is value for money if you spend every minute of the day on the game, and yes I enjoy it for the few hours that I play. But that still does not make the additional charge right.

Does anyone agree with that in the slightest? (Not holding my breath lol)
 
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Soldato
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dun said:
Less than 10 quid a month stops you from playing a game that has hundreds of hours gameplay? I take it you dont drive/ have hobbies/ a job :o

I enjoy playing WoW and have just got a new 60 Ally mage. Liking the new patch and looking forward to the next one :)

100 of hours of gameplay?

Seriously I got bored by the end of the first week (and not playing it for 8 hours a day either) when my Warlock was around level 40ish...

The game is aimed really at children - click a monster press your hot-keys as fast as possible, rest and repeat.

At least in other games you get to vuln, bane, cast protection spells choose what kind of spell you would like (i.e. fire, lightning) and thus represented in the damage you do.

£8.99 is a lot of money for some people as well and they may well enjoy it for a few months until they reach game-over with everyone then going into instances to try and grab a bit of loot that they have a one in x (team party size) chance of getting and then if you dont get you have to repeat it over and over again...

Oh and then theres the cost of the addons...
 
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