Knees and squats

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everytime i squat with weights in either arm my knees click or grind , does this happen to everyone else? this isnt medical just want to know if its normal! :)
 
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I personally dont get it, but i suppose you can go to a sports therapist and ask him about it, but if it's not hurting i dont hink its that much to worry about.
And why are you squatting with dumbells, why not use a barbell?
 
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Yup, I get this too. I also get it in my back when I do sit ups. I spoke to a personal trainer I know (not mine though) and they said it was totally normal and nothing to worry about.
 
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Clicking is quite common and nothing to worry about unless you get pain/locking/giving-way with it. :)
The grinding is possibly due to patello-femoral (kneecap) joint dysfunction/maltracking or chondromalacia patella (which IS medical). :(
As soon as you bend your knee(s) you are loading the patello-femoral joint, add weight to that and you put more stress on the joint.
If you continue to squat make sure you use good technique i.e. feet slightly turned out and your kneecap going in the direction of your middle toe when bending. If you are concerned about it see your gp. ;)
 
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delbuenno said:
Clicking is quite common and nothing to worry about unless you get pain/locking/giving-way with it. :)
The grinding is possibly due to patello-femoral (kneecap) joint dysfunction/maltracking or chondromalacia patella (which IS medical). :(
As soon as you bend your knee(s) you are loading the patello-femoral joint, add weight to that and you put more stress on the joint.
If you continue to squat make sure you use good technique i.e. feet slightly turned out and your kneecap going in the direction of your middle toe when bending. If you are concerned about it see your gp. ;)

cheers dude just wanted to make sure i wouldnt end up in a wheel chair for the rest of my life :p i squat with dumbells because i dont have a barbell :p
 

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stig said:
cheers dude just wanted to make sure i wouldnt end up in a wheel chair for the rest of my life :p i squat with dumbells because i dont have a barbell :p

TBH squating with correct form (and non-exessive weight) would likely help (rather than hinder) any possible mild underlying issues.
 
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Fop said:
TBH squating with correct form (and non-exessive weight) would likely help (rather than hinder) any possible mild underlying issues.
IF the cause is patellofemoral joint dysfunction/maltracking AND there is a biomechanical fault then the biomechanical fault(s) need adressing. Squatting with good form will NOT help rectus femoris or illiotibial band tightness. Nor would it help tight hamstrings or calves (both a cause of chondromalacia patella), OR overpronating feet, valgus deformity at the heel or other tight tissues at the knee.
 
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when i first started doing weightless squats i used to get quite a lot of clicking but after a few weeks it almost went away and keeping the feet angled out slighlty reduces it.
 
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With you it could have been to due to weak vastus medialis obliquus or weak lateral rotation portion of gluteus medius. Both of which would benefit from 'good technique' squatting.
The important thing is to note that patellofemoral maltracking CAN be caused by a number of biomechanical factors and squatting is NOT the best approach for ALL of them.
 
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Fair comment.
The OP seemed content with my initial response. I just didn't want others reading the thread to think squatting is the answer to ALL clicking/grinding of the knees.
In future I will tone down the jargon. ;)
 

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delbuenno said:
IF the cause is patellofemoral joint dysfunction/maltracking AND there is a biomechanical fault then the biomechanical fault(s) need adressing. Squatting with good form will NOT help rectus femoris or illiotibial band tightness. Nor would it help tight hamstrings or calves (both a cause of chondromalacia patella), OR overpronating feet, valgus deformity at the heel or other tight tissues at the knee.

True, but with in the case of most of those things, not only would he have likely have noticed it in many instances other than squatting, and he’d likely be experiencing a bit of pain too.

So I’m just saying in that context (in relation to his worry about end up in a wheelchair) a bit of squatting with good form (and sensible weight) is more likely to help than hinder.

Of course if he’s got a condition that requires surgery to correct then it wouldn’t help and might well make it worse, but then I would have thought he’d probably already know about it in one way or another (and should be going to a doctor about it not a message board :)).
 
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My knees used to click even when running, but it passed after a few years, now my left ankle clicks, more sounds like a snap, its pretty loud each time i do toe raises or even walk upstairs, and sometimes normal walking :p doesnt give me any discomfort though.
 
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Fop said:
True, but with in the case of most of those things, not only would he have likely have noticed it in many instances other than squatting, and he’d likely be experiencing a bit of pain too.
Not necessarily, Squatting with weight maybe the only thing which produces sufficient compresssion and sheering forces at the patellofemoral (kneecap) joint (reaching 4-5 times bodyweight with around your 70% max squat weight) to bring on the symptoms.

and a reference about the likelyhood of pain ...

"Most important to remember, is that knee pain does not always accompany chondromalacia patella and often the degree of chondromalacia patella does not correlate with the symptoms (Kipnis and Scuderi, 1995)."

Fop said:
Of course if he’s got a condition that requires surgery to correct ....

Patellofemoral joint dysfunction/maltracking or Chondromalacia Patella does NOT require surgery to treat (ask Jenny McConnell ;) ) There are many conservative options prior to debridement +/- lateral release. Orthopaedic surgeons will often only perform surgery after 6-12 months of conservative treatment has failed or as a last resort (on the NHS).

Sparky191 - I'm a Physio
 

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delbuenno said:
Not necessarily, Squatting with weight maybe the only thing which produces sufficient compresssion and sheering forces at the patellofemoral (kneecap) joint (reaching 4-5 times bodyweight with around your 70% max squat weight) to bring on the symptoms.

and a reference about the likelyhood of pain ...

"Most important to remember, is that knee pain does not always accompany chondromalacia patella and often the degree of chondromalacia patella does not correlate with the symptoms (Kipnis and Scuderi, 1995)."

Patellofemoral joint dysfunction/maltracking or Chondromalacia Patella does NOT require surgery to treat (ask Jenny McConnell ;) ) There are many conservative options prior to debridement +/- lateral release. Orthopaedic surgeons will often only perform surgery after 6-12 months of conservative treatment has failed or as a last resort (on the NHS).

But surely if that was the cause of clicking and grinding (i.e. Crepitus – which I thought was usually only treated with clinical concern if pain was involved as well, but maybe not) in this case (and still had no pain showing in any symptoms - which is apparently quite possible, but on the whole is less likely in a case of chondromalacia patella than presenting pain at some point) then all squats, lunges, presses and extensions should probably be avoided in any case? (or at the very best undertaken after a complete exam and with strict trained supervision – in the case of an athlete that really needed to train in that manner for example)

Although if isn’t not chondromalacia patella, but something else (perhaps biomechanical issue, as you suggest) it’s said that squatting motions may well be better for Patellofemoral joint dysfunction than extension movements and such.

Strengthening the quadriceps is another effective technique for controlling PFD. However, it should be noted that certain traditional quadriceps-strengthening exercises, such as knee extensions, have been shown to create increased compressive forces to the patellofemoral joint. Instead, we recommend squatting exercises, which are naturally occurring motions in human function, and therefore, considered much safer in terms of patellofemoral joint compressive forces. As with all exercises, a gradual progression of force and motion is necessary to minimize the risk of injury during exercise.

Which is what I’d always been led to believe, that the squat was actually a very good (and safe) knee exercise when done correctly, with a lot of potential benefits (done badly, with bad form, excessive weight etc, obviously the potential for disaster extends in extremes even up to death, I guess :eek: ).

But really it goes back the point that if the OP has something that seriously wrong then a visit to the doctors is clearly needed, before they did anything to do with exercise again.

But I’d think that was being a little overly pessimistic about the whole thing, and on the whole it’s probably not too risky not to worry about what the OP mentions (and certainly ending up in a wheelchair) with good from, non-excessive weight and an absence of pain, but that’s just IMO.
 
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Fop said:
squatting motions may well be better for Patellofemoral joint dysfunction than extension movements and such.
yep, agree but who mentioned extensions? thats a whole different topic.

As my 3rd post states good technique squats WILL strengthen:-
-Vastus Medialus Obliquus
-Gluteus Medius (lateral rotation portion)
(so if weak glutes/VMO are the cause of the problem squats WILL help)

BUT....

as stated in my 2nd post squatting will do 'jack' for tightness in:-
-Illiotibial band (ITB)
-Rectus Femoris
-Hamstrings
-Calves
-knee retinaculum OR
-overpronating feet
-valgus deformity at the heel
(so if any of these factors are the cause of the problem (clicking/grinding in this case) and are not addressed then squatting may exacerbate it due to the compressive and sheering forces placed on the joint).

Good technique IS paramount when squatting which I advised in my 1st post and also advised th OP to see a GP if he was concerned about it.
So are we in agreement now? LOL
 

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delbuenno said:
So are we in agreement now? LOL

Well I dunno as basically what I said was that squats will likely help not hinder and as in the case of most things you mention they are a good exercise (in some cases the best, although some of those things they won't help directly, but may indirectly - with the marked exception of Chondromalacia Patella, but then all potential knee exercises are iffy) and can even help to avoid some of the things you mention (although again the lack of pain would suggest it is likely it isn’t many of the above, at least in an acute stage).

Clearly if the OP has Chondromalacia Patella then that’s a different thing, but as I said I think that’s about the most pessimistic possible view to take.
 
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