Man of Honour
Nothing wrong at all with being relaxed, provided the workers (a) get the job done, do it right, and preferably on-time, and (b) don't mess people around (especially customers).
Dealing with troublesome employees?
- Thread starter Metalface Mark
- Start date
Call ACAS , even though in my area they are a law on to themselves against employers they are legally obliged to tell you if what you are doing is against employment law.
You dont want it to go to a tribunal if you do sack him at all, even if he resigns he can still take you as well (constructive dismissal). The crap thing is even if you do follow the procedures they can still take it to a tribunal and win lol :S
You dont want it to go to a tribunal if you do sack him at all, even if he resigns he can still take you as well (constructive dismissal). The crap thing is even if you do follow the procedures they can still take it to a tribunal and win lol :S
It's a difficult judgement to reach. Much of my reaction would depend on my assessment of what is going on. But one thing is clear - Inward's employee needs to be brought up short, and soon.Gilly said:
It seems to me, the relevant facts (as posted) are :-
1) The bloke is acting like an ass
2) He's a valuable employee
3) He's a friend (at least to some extent)
4) Inward and his brother-in-law have just taken over the company.
In all likelihood, everything needs to be viewed with 4) firmly as the context.
Some people are awkward. Sometimes it's because of a chip on their shoulder, because they think they're better than they are, because they think they are owed more (money, recognition, advancement, whatever) than they're getting, and sometimes it's just a character trait. Some people feel they should be running things. Sometimes, they just need to know there's a firm hand at the steering wheel.
My advice, such as it is, to Inward would be to try to assess what's actually going on here, and that :-
- he MUST get this situation under control. This bloke, it seems to me, for whatever reason, is pushing the boundaries. That implies that he's trying to work out exactly where the boundaries are. If you don't make it clear, Inward, he'll be a nightmare from now on.
- keep both employee and friend, if possible, but be aware it may not be possible. If not, decide if you want the business to carry an insubordinate loose canon, or whether you want to lose a friend. You may not have the option to keep both. You may not be able to keep either, unless you want him behaving however he likes, at work. Whether you can keep a friend and employee is in his hands, not yours. You DO have the other option.
Personally, valued employee and friend or not, I would not put up with being lied to, or repeatedly hung up on. That, in my view, is simply unacceptable behaviour for an employee. It's grossly unprofessional. More seriously, it significantly erodes any sense of faith or trust in the employee and, if that is gone, it is both justification and grounds for disciplinary action, up to and including dismissal.
So, having been treated that way, the employee would be formally instructed to be in my office at a specified time and date. By "formally", I mean either via his line manager if there is one, or by letter, if not. The letter would be a bit terse, but not unpleasant or threatening. I'd want him to arrive unnerved, uncertain as to what it was about and a bit worried. In other words, lightly toasted and concerned the heat was about to be turned up, and distinctly off-balance.
Make him unsure of his ground, and his position. Deflate his obvious arrogance and self-confidence in the fact that he can run rings round you. It would be an informal meeting, to enquire as to the state of his health, whether there was anything we could do to help, and to explain why he hung up.My intention would be to convey, very clearly but without stating it formally, that friend or not, I'm the boss and I expect to be treated professionally, and with some respect. If I could subliminally inform him that it's MY hands at the wheel of the company, that there are limits and that his behaviour is not going to be tolerated, and that he’s on thin ice.
If he gets the message, great. If not, the culmination of that meeting would be to inform him that if we have to have another such meeting, it will be the start of a formal disciplinary procedure, in line with both standing legislation and any company disciplinary procedure. Such procedure WILL commence next time he either hangs up on me, or I catch him lying to me.
Inward, you have to recognise that you could end up loosing both an employee AND a friend, here. But, my perspective is that if you don't want his behaviour to spread, you have to make it clear to him, and far more important, to other employees, that he can't get away with this. If you don't, they'll be running wild, not you running the company. It's an unpleasant situation, but one that, in my view, needs to be grasped and dealt with, and SOON.
Personally, I'd hate being in this position but, ultimately, if you're running the company you have a duty not just to yourself, but to other shareholders AND the employees to ensure that such blatant unprofessionalism does not continue. If that can be achieved with a light touch and a subtle reminder of who the boss is, great. If it needs a firmer and less subtle, even formal warning, then that's what it needs. If this bloke can't take a subtle hint and won't respond to a formal process, then personally, I'd be sorry but he'd be an ex-employee.
A warning, Inward. This type of bad behaviour tends to set a precedent. If one bloke gets away with it, somebody else will try it. Then another, and before you know it, you have anarchy. My advice …. however unpleasant it will be, deal with it before it becomes a major problem. If that means you lose both a friend and a valued employee, well, …. sometimes life’s a bitch.
spot on as usual. been there and read the book.Sequoia said:It's a difficult judgement to reach. Much of my reaction would depend on my assessment of what is going on. But one thing is clear - Inward's employee needs to be brought up short, and soon.
It seems to me, the relevant facts (as posted) are :-
1) The bloke is acting like an ass
2) He's a valuable employee
3) He's a friend (at least to some extent)
4) Inward and his brother-in-law have just taken over the company.
In all likelihood, everything needs to be viewed with 4) firmly as the context.
Some people are awkward. Sometimes it's because of a chip on their shoulder, because they think they're better than they are, because they think they are owed more (money, recognition, advancement, whatever) than they're getting, and sometimes it's just a character trait. Some people feel they should be running things. Sometimes, they just need to know there's a firm hand at the steering wheel.
My advice, such as it is, to Inward would be to try to assess what's actually going on here, and that :-
- he MUST get this situation under control. This bloke, it seems to me, for whatever reason, is pushing the boundaries. That implies that he's trying to work out exactly where the boundaries are. If you don't make it clear, Inward, he'll be a nightmare from now on.
- keep both employee and friend, if possible, but be aware it may not be possible. If not, decide if you want the business to carry an insubordinate loose canon, or whether you want to lose a friend. You may not have the option to keep both. You may not be able to keep either, unless you want him behaving however he likes, at work. Whether you can keep a friend and employee is in his hands, not yours. You DO have the other option.
Personally, valued employee and friend or not, I would not put up with being lied to, or repeatedly hung up on. That, in my view, is simply unacceptable behaviour for an employee. It's grossly unprofessional. More seriously, it significantly erodes any sense of faith or trust in the employee and, if that is gone, it is both justification and grounds for disciplinary action, up to and including dismissal.
So, having been treated that way, the employee would be formally instructed to be in my office at a specified time and date. By "formally", I mean either via his line manager if there is one, or by letter, if not. The letter would be a bit terse, but not unpleasant or threatening. I'd want him to arrive unnerved, uncertain as to what it was about and a bit worried. In other words, lightly toasted and concerned the heat was about to be turned up, and distinctly off-balance.
My intention would be to convey, very clearly but without stating it formally, that friend or not, I'm the boss and I expect to be treated professionally, and with some respect. If I could subliminally inform him that it's MY hands at the wheel of the company, that there are limits and that his behaviour is not going to be tolerated, and that he’s on thin ice.
If he gets the message, great. If not, the culmination of that meeting would be to inform him that if we have to have another such meeting, it will be the start of a formal disciplinary procedure, in line with both standing legislation and any company disciplinary procedure. Such procedure WILL commence next time he either hangs up on me, or I catch him lying to me.
Inward, you have to recognise that you could end up loosing both an employee AND a friend, here. But, my perspective is that if you don't want his behaviour to spread, you have to make it clear to him, and far more important, to other employees, that he can't get away with this. If you don't, they'll be running wild, not you running the company. It's an unpleasant situation, but one that, in my view, needs to be grasped and dealt with, and SOON.
Personally, I'd hate being in this position but, ultimately, if you're running the company you have a duty not just to yourself, but to other shareholders AND the employees to ensure that such blatant unprofessionalism does not continue. If that can be achieved with a light touch and a subtle reminder of who the boss is, great. If it needs a firmer and less subtle, even formal warning, then that's what it needs. If this bloke can't take a subtle hint and won't respond to a formal process, then personally, I'd be sorry but he'd be an ex-employee.
A warning, Inward. This type of bad behaviour tends to set a precedent. If one bloke gets away with it, somebody else will try it. Then another, and before you know it, you have anarchy. My advice …. however unpleasant it will be, deal with it before it becomes a major problem. If that means you lose both a friend and a valued employee, well, …. sometimes life’s a bitch.
i was in a similar situation as inward, just invested a large amount of money and time in training, one of my fitters. I chose the pally approach, and the fitter went from bad to worse. Draw a line in the sand now and let him know what will happen if he crosses it. i let it drag on too long and had major problems, eventually he left anyway, as he had had a better job offer.(he he) company he went to closed 3 months later.
Soldato
Visage said:
Industrial tribunal? It's a present & real treat in today's world.
Informal 'chat' with them is the best way forward. Offer them all the support you can whilst bearing in mind your making a rope for them to hang themselves
Soldato
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Gilly said:
Anyone who wants to jerk their boss around isn't going to give a **** about their 'improvement plan' becasue they are pushing authority in the first place so aren't going to change tactic just becasue Authority has noticed what they are doing.
The behaviour that the employee is undertaking sounds very disrespectful. I'd just call him into your office and ask him why he's ****ing you around. Don't dress it up, just ask him and see if you get an honest answer.
This is basically upping the ante - he's being a BIT disrepectful but if he doesn't come honest at this point he's got to committ to his disrespect. If he committs then you know you've got a poor worker, and hit him with a formal disciplinary.
EDIT: Perhaps Sequoia's method is a little more subtle and businesslike. I'd still like to see what happens when you ask him why he's "****ing you around" though
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Associate
cleanbluesky said:
I disagree.
I've had some positive reactions from people who were pushing the boundaries in the past. They were just trying it on, probably trying to look "cool" to the other employees. Depending on how it's done, they can be brought back down to Earth successfully and trouble-free. Of course, some people just can't be told, nor changed, and they're the ones who must be axed.
Soldato
When you get him in your office, say very little at the begining, let him do all the talking. If he's a muppet the chances are he will hang himself. Gives you the opportunity to decide your own response based on what he says and his attitude.
Associate
I'm am just guesing here but am asuming these are plumbers??
if so:
1) They are tradesmen, don't expect anything less than them trying to wind you up it goes with the territory i'm afraid. (thats with regards to them pulling your leg).
2) He/she knows that they are skilled tradesmen and know they could find a job with the click of a finger especially since the lack of trade'ies about at the moment due to most people not liking manual labour.
With those two points in mind (espcially the second) I'd play this very carefully, make the atmosphere cosy, maybe take them down the pub at lunch for a pint on a friday afternoon (2-3pm), tell them your a little concerned and feel they are taking the biscuit with all the sickys, BUT and that is a BIG BUT, make sure you leave the convasation on a high by maybe say its POETS day lads, go home and have a good weekend.
I'm sure they'd appreciate that far more than being brought into an office, where they get a rollocking, and after leaving the office their then onto the phone to the other plumbers down the road searching for jobs.
My 2p. take it as you will.
if so:
1) They are tradesmen, don't expect anything less than them trying to wind you up it goes with the territory i'm afraid. (thats with regards to them pulling your leg).
2) He/she knows that they are skilled tradesmen and know they could find a job with the click of a finger especially since the lack of trade'ies about at the moment due to most people not liking manual labour.
With those two points in mind (espcially the second) I'd play this very carefully, make the atmosphere cosy, maybe take them down the pub at lunch for a pint on a friday afternoon (2-3pm), tell them your a little concerned and feel they are taking the biscuit with all the sickys, BUT and that is a BIG BUT, make sure you leave the convasation on a high by maybe say its POETS day lads, go home and have a good weekend.
I'm sure they'd appreciate that far more than being brought into an office, where they get a rollocking, and after leaving the office their then onto the phone to the other plumbers down the road searching for jobs.
My 2p. take it as you will.
Soldato
Advisory. Pull them in, have a quiet word and keep a record.
InwardSinging said:
I'm in the process of going temp to perm with a large insurance firm, they are going to pay for my courses but if I leave (or was to get sacked) within a certain period of time then I will be liable for the costs of the course. It's a standard thing with a lot of large companies.
Maybe you should think about getting your engi's to sign something in the future before doing courses so that you can discipline them without the fear of being left out of pocket if they walk or you need to give them the boot.
If you're coming down on someone for the amount of sick leave they take, stop right there. As a manager, you have no right to complain about the legitimacy of any sick day an employee takes. It is your place to manage the absence levels and not the sickness. Remember this, it's an unfortunate state of affairs, but also a minefield.
For example, an employee could say they were feeling sick, and you see them walking down the street. For all you know, they could be going to the doctor's surgery, but you would naturally assume they were skiving.
Go through any existing policies and find out the contract he has signed. Look for anything relating to conduct or sickness, and arrange an informal meeting. At the end of the meeting, write what has been said and agreed. You need to set a goal relating to absence, and a timescale for this. The employee and yourself need to sign the document, and you give him a copy, and one remains on his file for a defined period of time. If the employee strays from the agreement over this period of time, you can begin disciplinary proceedings.
Remember, the meeting you've just had is informal, but a note of it is kept for your reference. Once the defined period of time has elapsed, destroy the note, his record goes back to scratch. At no stage is the meeting punitive, you are merely explaining the expectations your company has of employees, and explaining the consequences (i.e. disciplinary action).
You cannot "make an example" of someone, as they will state constructive dismissal.
Realistically, this is the sort of thing that happens whenever new management comes into a place. People will test the boundaries as much as they can to see how far they can push it, it's completely natural. Your reaction to it will determine how far he actually gets.
For example, an employee could say they were feeling sick, and you see them walking down the street. For all you know, they could be going to the doctor's surgery, but you would naturally assume they were skiving.
Go through any existing policies and find out the contract he has signed. Look for anything relating to conduct or sickness, and arrange an informal meeting. At the end of the meeting, write what has been said and agreed. You need to set a goal relating to absence, and a timescale for this. The employee and yourself need to sign the document, and you give him a copy, and one remains on his file for a defined period of time. If the employee strays from the agreement over this period of time, you can begin disciplinary proceedings.
Remember, the meeting you've just had is informal, but a note of it is kept for your reference. Once the defined period of time has elapsed, destroy the note, his record goes back to scratch. At no stage is the meeting punitive, you are merely explaining the expectations your company has of employees, and explaining the consequences (i.e. disciplinary action).
You cannot "make an example" of someone, as they will state constructive dismissal.
Realistically, this is the sort of thing that happens whenever new management comes into a place. People will test the boundaries as much as they can to see how far they can push it, it's completely natural. Your reaction to it will determine how far he actually gets.
Associate
Alasdair said:
Judging from how the worker has been acting towards the OP, the sick-days issue is the least of his problems.
It may be splitting hairs, but I don't agree with quite a bit of that.Alasdair said:
Firstly, it is, in my view, very much a manager's duty to consider legitimacy of an employee's sickness claims .... though I most certainly would agree, you have to be extremely careful how you go about it.
If sickness is genuine, then it can still be a cause for dismissal, but the process you go through to get there is both fairly complex and different from a disciplinary process. If, however, sickness is being claimed falsely, then it is certainly grounds for disciplinary action and, quite possibly, dismissal. The problem is likely to be proving that it is false. Walking down the street, as you point out, doesn't qualify, but someone off work with a bad back caught having 18 holes on the golf course, or carrying hods of bricks up a ladder while they build an extension on their house, would.
Assuming, however, that ill health is genuine, but "excessive", then the question becomes, how much is excessive, and what options can an employer offer? In that situation, I would suggest consultation, discussion, consideration and investigation are all in order, but a disciplinary, as such, is not. I would advise careful record keeping of the employees absence (in fact that ought to be standard practice), and if a pattern or excessive levels start to appear, to confront (in the mildest way) the employee with that record. An example would be a polite letter inviting them to a meeting to discuss it, at which they are shown a copy of the record and invited to sign it, together with the employer, and a copy given to the employee. That, alone, might be enough to solve the problem. A discussion needs to take place as to the nature of the problem, the expectations for the future, and what steps the employer can take to help. An employer needs to give due consideration to how they can help the employee, perhaps by changing their hours, or duties. Medical evidence needs to be considered, and either a company doctor, or perhaps independent Occupation Health consultant consulted, and whether the employee is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act considered.
In any event, the employer needs to consider any "reasonable adjustments" they can make, perhaps not just to working conditions and duties, but to the working environment. However, "reasonable" means just that - it does not mean any and all steps, including bending over backwards.
But at the end of the day, excessive illness by an employee does put a considerable extra load, and probably cost, on an employer and it cannot go on indefinitely. Small employers, in particular, may not be able to absorb the extra work or cost, for extended periods.
In summary, I'd say false claims of sickness do indeed provide grounds for dismissal, given adequate evidence and that company procedures (which should comply with both statutory requirements and ACAS guidelines) have been followed. Doing this properly is, as Alasdair says, necessary to avoid either an unfair dismissal claim, or a constructive dismissal one.
In the case of excessive health, if all consultation has been done, all reasonable asjustments offered and made, and the situation continues, then dismissal may be the only option remaining, but I would not call it a disciplinary process, as that implies wrong-doing, which is not the case.
One point on which I 100% agree with Alasdair - it's a minefield. Dismissal, in any but the grossest of cases, usually is. So the essential advice, as usual, is get advice from an expert, and one fully familiar with the detail of the case. It might keep you ought of a tribunal hearing, and the cost of the advice is likely to be less than the cost of the hearing, even if you were to win it.
Soldato
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Sequoia said:
Whatever happened to trust?
If your employees are lying to you, you have to ask how they see YOU and your attitude towards them and questions about your judgement if you hire people you do not trust or that feel they need to lie to you
Some people are just untrustworthy, and out for anything they can get, fair or not and legal or not. It says more about them, than it does about me.cleanbluesky said:
I'm NOT suggesting, cbs, that every time an employee has a day off you wonder if they're swinging the lead, but .... suppose you noticed that a group of 4 employees were regularly taking Mondays off ...... on a strict rota basis, every two or three weeks.
Suppose you had a pattern of this going on for 18 months. Don't you think, when the next Monday off appeared, from the right person and in the right timeframe, you'd have cause to wonder?And yes, that DID happen to me.
Trust is a two-way thing, cbs. You have to extend it, but (and it's a sorry reflection on humanity, but absolutely a justified one) that trust cannot be limitless. Many, maybe most, people won't abuse it. Some, however, will do so, and will do so any chance they get, in any way they get. It's why people get caught with their hand in the till and, yes, that's happened too.
Anyone running a business (with employees) that is not at least aware of this possibility, and alert to it, is naive ...... or very new to it. Experience, I'm afraid, breeds a level of caution.
Associate
Sequoia said:Some people are just untrustworthy, and out for anything they can get, fair or not and legal or not. It says more about them, than it does about me.
I'm NOT suggesting, cbs, that every time an employee has a day off you wonder if they're swinging the lead, but .... suppose you noticed that a group of 4 employees were regularly taking Mondays off ...... on a strict rota basis, every two or three weeks.
And yes, that DID happen to me.
That should not have gone on for a month. 18 months of that without a word does not look good.
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To the OP; as far as I can tell your employees are not missing work, but are being incredibly unprofessional.
Speak to them individually and ask them what they think they have been doing.
Then tell them what you think they have been doing and inform them that you are aware that they are playing these silly jokes and whilst you are sure it is amusing for them, this is not the way professionals within your company are expected to behave.
If they try to interrupt at any point within your dialogue, silence them and carry on talking until you are done.
Afterwards ask them how they plan to avoid this type of behaviour and make certain they act professionally in future.
Come to an agreement of expected behaviour and that this needs to take effect immediately.
Inform them that there will be follow up meeting in a month, send them an e-mail stating all points discussed and make a note in your calender.
It is important to follow up promptly on this and again follow up in writing so there is something there if you ever do need to give them a written warning.
You state that they have been family friends for a long time. The main thing you need to do is earn their respect by acting like a manager.
For the love of god, do not hand out a written warning like some have suggested though as this heavy handed approach does not work outside the military.
It will take time to move into that position as you can not become an authority figure to previous friends and colleagues overnight without appearing to be able to handle this type of issue.
I would also advise an informal chat later on in the week outside work explaining that at work you are the boss no matter the relationship outside the office and that the interests of the company are equal to the well being of the staff and one can not be abandoned due to friendship.
Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. Someone takes a monday off. Two or three weeks later, a different person takes a monday off. Two or three weeks later, a third person does it, and two or three weeks after that, the last of the four does. Two or three weeks later, it's the first again. I don't mean all four were off every few weeks. That's why I said it was on a rota basis.Morat said:
Over a period of up to 10 or 12 weeks, each person has only taken one day off. Just how are you supposed to spot that that is anything other than coincidence, in a month, when at most, two different people have taken a single day off
Even after a year or so, it's not entirely obvious what's going on. It could just be sporadic illness, or coincidence, because each person has only taken three or four, or at most, five, single days off. And, generally, you don't expect staff to be working in collusion like this.
So, please tell me, why does it look bad that it went on for that long? How the hell was I supposed to spot it in a month? And even after you become suspicious, you need more than suspicion to act on it.
The only way is to deal with it is in a formal manner.
For the guy who is always on sick you can request that he provides you with a doctors note each and every time he is off sick and not let him back untill he has a letter from his docter saying he is fit to work, if he fails to do so and he doesnt inform you of a medical condition that he has that prevents him from carrying out his duties, get rid.
The guy who played the trick on you about not coming in, straight written warning about his future conduct in this matter.
For the guy who is always on sick you can request that he provides you with a doctors note each and every time he is off sick and not let him back untill he has a letter from his docter saying he is fit to work, if he fails to do so and he doesnt inform you of a medical condition that he has that prevents him from carrying out his duties, get rid.
The guy who played the trick on you about not coming in, straight written warning about his future conduct in this matter.