US Plane Vs British Tank

Soldato
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I was going to make a lengthy post regarding theis subject, but after reading a few of the replies, I realise it's pointless. There's just too many people are convinced that every US serviceman is a bloodthirsty, trigger happy moron with no training and 100% acccurate and available intel on all situations.

And 99% of those spouting thier BS have about as much experience with anything to do with military operations as I have of walking on the moon.

Until you've been in a combat situation in ANY military, you have absolutely NO idea what actually goes on there. I'm not saying I'm a combat tested veteran that doesn't make mistakes, but I've at least been there and done that.

As for those spouting off about IFF (Indetification Friend or Foe) systems and such, please remember that not all systems have that. Neither of the two systems I worked on had it. Neither of them had the capability. And one was NATO Seasparrow (point defense missile system, note the NATO in there), and the other was CIWS Phalanx, the 6 barreled gatling cannon. Either one would completely demolish anything flying in the blink of an eye, but neither one could differentiate between an F-14, a Tornado, a Mig 27, or a Boeing 747. And there was no way to make them so. We had to rely 100% on other people determining the viability of the target, and that determination was made through AT LEAST 6 levels of the chain of command, and it was ALL done by voice comms. Oh, and generally to prevent enemy copying of IFF signals, they are changed on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. All it takes is one person forgetting to update thier IFF system, and all of a sudden they are automatically targetted because they come across as captured by enemy forces.

I literally cringe inside every time I hear one of you start voicing your opinions on the US military. Generally because the opinions voiced are 100% uneducated (almost as bad as the level of intelligence you give the average US servicemember) and are so biased by an unreliable media as to be almost 100% false. You pick out one little point of the whole story (as does the media source you get 100% of your info and opinion from) and tunnel vision it to death, to the point you won't even consider any other point.


And Richdog, Zip has a point. From the reader's point of view, you were targetting the US military exclusively and bashing them to hell. You came across as completely flippant with your remarks and the image I got was one of someone imitating a hairdresser flipping his/her hair over the shoulder with a limp wrist while clicking thier tongue in mock disgust. Whether that was your intention or not, that was the impression I got from your posts. ALL OF THEM in this thread. So before you go bashing the crap out of someone that has a completely outside point of view on this, he's not the only one that took your remarks in a negative way.
 
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Caporegime
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Mickey_D said:
And Richdog, Zip has a point. From the reader's point of view, you were targetting the US military exclusively and bashing them to hell. You came across as completely flippant with your remarks and the image I got was one of someone imitating a hairdresser flipping his/her hair over the shoulder with a limp wrist while clicking thier tongue in mock disgust. Whether that was your intention or not, that was the impression I got from your posts. ALL OF THEM in this thread. So before you go bashing the crap out of someone that has a completely outside point of view on this, he's not the only one that took your remarks in a negative way.

Bashing the crap out of someone? More melodrama... *sigh*

And more than a few people realised he was being incredibly and unecessarily pedantic, read the posts for yourself. He made out like I was saying friendly fire was unacceptable if by Americans, and fine and dandy if by anyone else. Which to be honest only a plonker could think...

Certianly not worth arguing about...
 
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Given the irrelevant replies, I think I'll ask my question again and explain it in depth.

The USA military has many times the number of soldiers and equipment in Iraq, etc, than its allies.

The USA military kills its allies by mistake far more often than the military of its allies does.

A line of argument being put forward is that the former causes the latter.


If it is simply a matter of numbers, then there should be a similarly large number of USA soldiers killed by mistake by USA soldiers. Here's the key question - is this the case?

If it is not the case, then there is a specific issue regarding USA soldiers recognising foreign allies and it is not just a matter of general human error.
 
Soldato
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Angilion, I think the last two words of your post sum it up.

Also, excellent post by Mickey_D. The thread was started to discuss one particular incident and quickly snowballed into a 'Trigger Happy Yanks' bashing. The inquiry into this incident will hopefully determine why the 'IFF' system failed, (or was possibly ignored or even over-ridden). I know that IFF is a no go system, ie, the aircraft won't commence a sortie unless the IFF transponders are tested and working on the in-force 'codes'. Also the vehicle attacked was a Scimitar and the combat identification capability fitted to these vehicles is compatible and comparable with that of the US and is based on NATO standards.

For me, the key to this is why the aircraft left a formation to press home the attack as a singleton?
 
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Chasser said:
Angilion, I think the last two words of your post sum it up.
Someone is going to surprise me and actually read the entire post, perhaps even answer the question. Picking two words out of one sentence very rarely leads to a reasonable summary of a post and it certainly doesn't in this case.
 
Soldato
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Do you really think anyone from this forum could answer your question? I tried, my answer and my opinion was 'human error'.

Yes, there are vastly more US assets deployed in the Iraq theatre of operations than there are UK (and coalition for that matter). IMHO I don't think the number of FF incidents are a reflection of this imbalance. IMHO I don't think it's a matter of poor command, control, communications etc. Just tragic and unfortunate human error. But that's my opinion.

And talking of reading the entire thread, did you read my previous posts? I still believe this particular incident was human error, negligence was the word I used.
 
Soldato
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I dont belive every US person is trigger fingers, however i belive there is a lack of thought process.

Up until several years ago US Marines were not required to be able to read or write just how to follow orders and kill.

Yes the IFF systems should be compatibale the problem is each country has its own system that is classified so we wont release info on how it works to other countries. Just like the Typhoon has RAM paint on the engine intakes that the Germans make but with one damaged they will not give us the paint and have yet to send anyone over to paint the damanged area.

Yes we are all in NATO and fighting for the same cause more or less, but there is still a great deal of differences between kit/attitudes, hopefully this will get better as we work together more, its only really been in the last decade that NATO has really had to work together in a real comabat situation.

Yes it was a mistake the A10 did attack a British convoy but the A10 is a very old plane designed to kill tanks, and does not have all the nav aides and elec systems other jets like the F16 and F15 would have, however saying that a year or so a go a F-16 straffed a US school which was empty at the time with its main gun on a training exercise, the issue was the range was 10 miles away, ok the GPS may have been wrong but its the mentality of the US depending on their gizmos and if it says there are in the right place they will follow the mission without making a visual id of the target.

This I think will be solved as manned AC are phased out and UCAVs take over and more smart crusie missiles like the Storm Shadow are deployed with their own visual check and battlefield assement systems.

Kimbie
 
Soldato
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Isn't this the situation where the tank shot out a blue friend flare multiple times and the pilot in the plane continued to shoot at them. If this was actually the case, the pilot should be jailed for being so incompetent at his job.
This is happening far to often, you dont see the british doing this to the americans, but many times we have heard stories of our "Allies" killing our troops.
Some of the american soldiers need to get sort their heads sorted out and think about what they are doing.
 
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Its one thing to kill there own but to start on us. Its a shame to see a gorgeous plane such as the A10 put to horriffic use.

It doesnt need to fire its primary gun for long since it can rip through anything. The ammo is about as tall as a midget.
 
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Does anyone know the actual true story for what happened? This is one reason why I hate debating these stories, people hear a bit of the sotry from their friends and the story get twisted every time its told.

As for that US Marine story, do you have any evidence? I did find out that each branch allows between 2% and 4% of its recruits to be considered class IV, meaning they scored between the 21% and 30% percentile on the ASVAB. That does not mean that any joe dirt can walk into a recruiting station and become a marine, its means they make small exceptions.

John Simpson's incident is completely different and is not the point of discussion in this thread

Here is a good photo of the whole gun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GAU-8_avenger.jpg
 
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Soldato
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Stiff_Cookie said:
Does anyone know the actual true story for what happened? This is one reason why I hate debating these stories, people hear a bit of the sotry from their friends and the story get twisted every time its told.

The US Military do. Thats the point of this thread (see the link in the OP). an inquest is underway into the death of the soldier. The US has taped evidence of the attack but won't release it to the coroner.
 
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The view you really don't want of the A-10

A10.jpg


As the motto of the A-10's used to be.. Ugly, but well hung.

Simon/~Flibster
 
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Chasser said:
The US Military do. Thats the point of this thread (see the link in the OP). an inquest is underway into the death of the soldier. The US has taped evidence of the attack but won't release it to the coroner.


I read the link, I was asking because everyone seems to have a different story. Some say that the troops used the radio to call off the attack, some say they used some sort of flare to call of the attack. I was just wondering if anyone here knows the true events that took place rather than rumours.
 
Soldato
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Stiff_Cookie. I'm pretty sure no one on here knows for sure. Lets hope the enquiry can determine the facts then the soldiers family can lay their lad to rest properly.


Nikumba said:
Yes the IFF systems should be compatibale the problem is each country has its own system that is classified so we wont release info on how it works to other countries.

Not so, the IFF in question is a NATO standard and has been in use (sucessfully) for many years.
 
Man of Honour
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Chasser said:
Stiff_Cookie. I'm pretty sure no one on here knows for sure. Lets hope the enquiry can determine the facts then the soldiers family can lay their lad to rest properly.




Not so, the IFF in question is a NATO standard and has been in use (sucessfully) for many years.

What IFF system is that?
 
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