Muslims, Pork, forced selling of

seaviewuk · 23 May 2003 at 15:25

sometimes travel to work at gatwick on the train, there is a catering service (trolley at seat)

i have seen most of the staff and get on with them all, buying coffee etc etc.

this week they started selling sausage rolls, pork pies as a new item.

so far so good, but the trouble is this.

a couple of the guys are muslims and are not allowed to handle pork under their religion but their boss has told them that if they refuse to sell it then their jobs would not be there the following week. obviously the guys are not happy about it

they have no union and no written contract of employment, so basically they are on their own. leaving the job is not an option as they have found it hard to get employment, and yes, they are working legally

I want to help these guys out, without putting their jobs at risk what can i do for them?? any advice would be useful.

ps.the catering service is run as a franchise and is not part of the railway operation

r1cko · 23 May 2003 at 15:29

They're not being forced... and I suggest they look for new jobs as people are meant to take up the position of a task the employer wants not the other way around.

Unless they can handle pork using plastic gloves..

Snash · 23 May 2003 at 15:32

Difficult one. Some people would say if that's part of the job then you have to do it but am I right in thinking that the law says the employer must cater (excuse pun) for religious beliefs?

That doesn't help anyone who's not on a contract or the like tho'. Could a compromise be reached where they could where plastic gloves like they do in sandwich shops?

Interesting one but not so good for the employees concerned - maybe a quick trip to the CAB is in order?

chenko · 23 May 2003 at 15:34

Originally posted by r1cko

Unless they can handle pork using plastic gloves..

They would probaly be wrapped up

I never gave up pork myself, everyone makes their own choice. So it really depends on how much they are against it.

seaviewuk · 23 May 2003 at 15:37

Thanks for your replies so far guys.

I believe that "forced" is the correct word to use as they have no choice in the matter.

Yes! the pies are wrapped!

also these "pork" items have been added to the trolley after they accepted employment.

the advice to visit the CAB is good! I hadn't thought about that.

bandit · 23 May 2003 at 16:22

well it's nice to see someone looking out for the underdog for once (i.e the contract and terms of emplyment..not being a muslim!!)

personally, as a muslim, i whilst not happy to tuch pork was willing to do it if provided with gloves.

one the occaions that i actually did have to work dealing with Pork etc, (i was working through an agency) i told them that i felt uncomfortable doing this. they allowed my to do other work, e.g. tills, veggy stuff etc.

push come to shove i suppose they could go to the CAB, certainly they sholud have a look at their T&C's, and they should explore the opportunity to do other work within the company more palatable.

they have an arguement i think that they would not have done the job they are being forced to do now because they would not have accepted it knowing that they would have to handle pork.

on this basis depending on their length of service, they could also sue for constructive dismissal...

this is takingit a bit far though. if they really have a problem, there is also i think still the green form scheme, which allows you to see a solicitor for 3 hours, if you qualify under the means test. have a look in the yellow pages and look for those solicitors working under legal aid, they could advise you on the best course of action.

good luck and let us know how it goes.

[TW]Fox · 23 May 2003 at 16:36

Originally posted by seaviewuk
sometimes travel to work at gatwick on the train, there is a catering service (trolley at seat)

i have seen most of the staff and get on with them all, buying coffee etc etc.

this week they started selling sausage rolls, pork pies as a new item.

so far so good, but the trouble is this.

a couple of the guys are muslims and are not allowed to handle pork under their religion but their boss has told them that if they refuse to sell it then their jobs would not be there the following week. obviously the guys are not happy about it

What to they expect? The company wants to sell pork pies etc, what are they supposed to do? Deny the customers the chance to buy what they want purely becuase of someones religion?

Sorry, but I don't think they have any choice but to find alternative employment.

s-p · 23 May 2003 at 16:44

Originally posted by seaviewuk
they have no union and no written contract of employment, so basically they are on their own.

They obviously agreed to work under those conditions (without written contract) and accepted the job none the less.

Originally posted by seaviewuk
leaving the job is not an option as they have found it hard to get employment, and yes, they are working legally

Leaving the job is an option. If the employee is incapable of carrying out the job for which they have been employed, then their position should be considered. If you physically couldn't operate in that position, you would be forced to find a new job. Just because their religous beliefs come into play, its no different to being unable to carry out the tasks.

Job specifications change all the time, and with no written contract or union I don't see how they can really argue about the situation. Either they look elsewhere, or hand out the pork pies.

Note: I probably sound really insensitive in this post, but its just how I feel.

[TW]Fox · 23 May 2003 at 16:51

Re: Re: Muslims, Pork, forced selling of

Originally posted by s-p
Job specifications change all the time, and with no written contract or union I don't see how they can really argue about the situation. Either they look elsewhere, or hand out the pork pies.

I fully understand. Put it this way - the guys being able to force the employer not to sell the pies may actually harm other minorities in future.

Picture the scene. You are an honest company making a living doing catering on the railways. You hire 4 staff, and two of them are Muslim and two of them are not religious. They fit the criteria perfectly so you hire them - who cares that they are Muslim? This is the way it should be.

You then decide to better serve your customers you'll need to expand your range, and decide on a range of pork pies, suasage rolls and other cold meat products. The two muslims then kick off that it's against their religion, and refuse to handle the products at all, meaning you need to put off your plans which causes you quite a few problems.

6 months later, you have another vacancy. There are two candidates - both are perfect for the job, both are very pleasant, both meet the requirements perfectly. There is virtually nothing to seperate them. One is a Muslim.

Remembering the problems you encountered last time, who would you employ? Many people, rightly or wrongly, would not choose the Muslim after the problems encountered last time. If minority groups gain a reputation for kicking off about the slighest thing on religious grounds, it's only going to increase discrimination at interview etc becuase employers will just think it isn't worth the hassle or the risk.

Wrong, but that's how people are...

Can someone explain the problem with Pork anyway? Do Muslims beleive they'll go to hell if they sell Pukka Pies? Isn't that a bit of an irrational beleif?

Iver Athlon · 23 May 2003 at 17:02

Fair enough pork wasnt on the menu when they started the job but what do they want? The company to drop pork? The company to take them off the duty they was employed to do and give them filler work that doesnt really need doing to keep them busy? Why not just send them home and keep the pay checks going out?
They have special needs in a job so they sould get a job that caters for these needs or put up with it. The pies etc.. are wrapped, im sure the employer will provide gloves whats the problem?
Would be like me getting a job as a rent boy but refusing to get nailed in the butt because the bible says no.

5cupa · 23 May 2003 at 17:06

isent that being animalist towards pigs?

FordPrefect · 23 May 2003 at 17:09

They applied for a job that could include handling pork. If they had an issue with it surely they should have brought this up when they applied for the job ? Pork is a normal food in the UK and tbh unless you are applying to work for KFC, veggie restraunt or something similar then you should expect to be handling pork!

Morally they dont have a leg to stand on unless they were told by the employer that pork wasnt served and never would be served. Legally I am not so sure, given the PC culture in this country its possible they could have a claim but personally I hope not!

Slime101 · 23 May 2003 at 17:17

Surely theyre not handleing pork at all - theyre handleing some processed meat inside a pie or pastry casing which is then hermetically sealed into a plastic package - hardly toughing the pork is it :confused:

pamplemoose · 23 May 2003 at 17:51

Totally ridiculous. The pork would be wrapped in pastry, then in a plastic wrapper. I'd say the chances of a pork<-->skin interfacing would be quite low.

An employer can't constantly cater for a couple of staff members. If they don't like it then it's tough isn't it, there are other people out there in need of a job who would be willing to handle wrapped pork products...

BigWillyJohnson · 23 May 2003 at 18:01

Re: Re: Re: Muslims, Pork, forced selling of

Originally posted by [TW]Fox

Can someone explain the problem with Pork anyway? Do Muslims beleive they'll go to hell if they sell Pukka Pies? Isn't that a bit of an irrational beleif?

No, Muslims don't believe they will go to hell for selling Pukka Pies, or for handling pork. It is regarded as a sin (you know what that is right?) however, so it's not something that they would like to be doing as it will add to the odds of going to hell.

Your last question is irrelevant.

[TW]Fox · 23 May 2003 at 18:37

Re: Re: Re: Re: Muslims, Pork, forced selling of

Originally posted by BigWillyJohnson
No, Muslims don't believe they will go to hell for selling Pukka Pies, or for handling pork. It is regarded as a sin (you know what that is right?) however, so it's not something that they would like to be doing as it will add to the odds of going to hell.

Your last question is irrelevant.

Do they handle chicken?

ironman · 23 May 2003 at 19:20

Yes they can handle chicken afaik.

In response to your scenario Fox, all the employer needs to do is ask if they can handle pork products, no need to try and hide it, the job of the employer is to find the person that fits their criteria, if the person cannot handle pork then thats ok aslong as the person knows at the interview.

In my eyes that would be seen as quite respectful as the employer is taking into consideration different aspects of making the potential employee more comfortable.

[TW]Fox · 23 May 2003 at 19:27

Originally posted by gurdas
Yes they can handle chicken afaik.

Double standards then? Are Chickens considered lesser animals?

In response to your scenario Fox, all the employer needs to do is ask if they can handle pork products, no need to try and hide it

Presumably when they were hired they had no idea they would be selling pork, so why ask?

5cupa · 23 May 2003 at 19:44

Originally posted by [TW]Fox
Double standards then? Are Chickens considered lesser animals?

a short answer is yes. in there faith they are

The Edge · 23 May 2003 at 20:21

Originally posted by 5cupa
a short answer is yes. in there faith they are

Not sure that's true.

Muslims can only eat Halal meat. Pigs eat meat that is not Halal, therefore if muslim eats pig, he also consumes non-Halal food.

Hence no pig-outs (Fetches coat)