Second life- virtual child abuse?

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Just read a story over on the Beeb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6638331.stm) about a group of people being investigated for trading images of abuse and 'acting out' abuse in Second Life. Forgetting for a second the bizzareness of SL in general, and the fact that it's perhaps slightly disturbing even if they didn't swap real images, this raises an interesting question. Should you be convicted based on your virtual actions?

If so, surely if I play Nazi Germany on Yet Another World War II shooter I should be done for being a Nazi? Does killing countless thousands on almost every game I have ever played make me guilty of genocide? Where do you draw the line? I guess I posted this outside of the PC and Console forums as it raises bigger questions of virtual-ness in general.
 
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You forget though being a peadophile is worse than all the other crimes put together. If you even look like a peadophime you should be stoned...

On a serious note, yes it is rather disturbing but if there aren't actually any real image there shouldn't actually be a case against them. :confused:
 
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I hear what your saying about peadophile being worse than any crime but it doesnt quite work that way.

1 peado abusing a handful of children vs a maniac commiting genocide,I think the maniac has to be the worst crime.

Nto that I am in any way condoning peadohpillia you understand.
 
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Amp34 said:
On a serious note, yes it is rather disturbing but if there aren't actually any real image there shouldn't actually be a case against them. :confused:
In this case in particular it has been accused that real photos were being exchanged, so I'd imagine they'd get them on that alone, but what about the virtual-ness?
 
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The_KiD said:
I hear what your saying about peadophile being worse than any crime but it doesnt quite work that way.

1 peado abusing a handful of children vs a maniac commiting genocide,I think the maniac has to be the worst crime.

Nto that I am in any way condoning peadohpillia you understand.

It is technically a worser crime, but the victims dont suffer the pain forever, victims of sexual abuse do.
 
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Egosh said:
so many stories about wow and second life people take these games way too seriously and need to sort their lives out..

It's a cliche... but 'Real Life' is far more fun.

As for WoW... I'd rather smoke crack and shoot heroin into every orifice/ vein I have. It's far safer/ less addictive!

Luke15 said:
It is technically a worser crime, but the victims dont suffer the pain forever, victims of sexual abuse do.

What about all the family and friends of those affected? I'd say their pain is quite real.
 
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I'd probably ban the IP addresses from the game. I don't think you could imprison someone purely on the basis of them doing in this in a virtual world. Also you must question how it is allowed to happen in the game environment, surely someone must have thought of this during its development?
 
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The_KiD said:
I hear what your saying about peadophile being worse than any crime but it doesnt quite work that way.

I may have been a little sarcastic when making that post... ;)

In this case in particular it has been accused that real photos were being exchanged, so I'd imagine they'd get them on that alone, but what about the virtual-ness?

Ok well they should be charged on that not having virtual sex with a computer program. :)
 
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SiD the Turtle said:
Hmm the point I'm trying to make is what makes me PK-ing someone in an MMO not an offence, but virtually abusing them an offence?

I see exactly what you’re saying, but you have to take into consideration that displaying graphic images to a minor is against the law, no matter where it is done. You can’t make the connection that abuse in Second Life is part of the game, just as PKing in others is, it’s worlds apart. Abuse through words and images is abuse no matter how it’s done, killing someone on a screen is not the same as it’s done through consent. There’s not a blurred line here, it’s quite clear.
 
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Under Germany law possession of "virtual" child pornography is punishable by up to three years in jail.

I'm sorry to me that is bordering on thought crime. Where is the victim in this crime??
 
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eLbot said:
Abuse through words and images is abuse no matter how it’s done, killing someone on a screen is not the same as it’s done through consent. There’s not a blurred line here, it’s quite clear.
At what point does a pixelated graphic of a person, be they minor or not, become real though? If they had been trading actual child pornography via Second Life, then yes they should be arrested. If, however, it is a graphical representation, then ultimately is there any harm?

I'm not saying that there is no harm for definite - I don't know. However, surely if people with paedophillic urges get their buzz from made up images, isn't that better then them getting their kicks from real images?
 
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Fergie said:
I'm sorry to me that is bordering on thought crime. Where is the victim in this crime??

It has an indirect link to the 'real' images as, in a collection of virtual and real images, it would be used in the same way and could encourage the production/use of the real stuff.
 
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Fergie said:
I'm sorry to me that is bordering on thought crime. Where is the victim in this crime??
Agreed. If they're abusing real children or making real photographs then they deserve locking up. Otherwise I don't see what harm they are causing.
 
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platypus said:
However, surely if people with paedophillic urges get their buzz from made up images, isn't that better then them getting their kicks from real images?


I agree completely, my knowledge of paedophilia isn’t extensive but it’s very clear that it’s a real compulsion for some people, not so much a choice, but a drive.

Unfortunately a large percentage act on the urges in some way shape or form. It’s definitely and completely unarguable that it’s better for them to get their buzz and kick fulfilled by virtual representation rather than abuse a real child.

My personal view is that making something completely taboo isn’t effective, so the complete banning of even virtual images and pixelated representation of children, in my view, is a mistake. Arguably it harbours and increases the chance for actual abuse of a child as it may be their only access and if any form of it is illegal, why not go all the way? But the same argument can be applied against my opinion. If it’s there, they can see it; they may become desensitised to it and decide to act on their urges for real.

There is a massive Japanese culture for anime pictures depicting children in adult situations, in Japan their stance is that it helps feed the urges and stops actual abuse, in America however, possession of these anime images is as illegal as possession of actual child pornography.

In the reported case by the beeb, real images were in circulation and being offered. This is obviously illegal and nobody can argue that it isn’t harmful, that is what I was referring to. There’s a mention of virtual representation being illegal, there’s not really a gray line there either, any representation of a child in an adult situation in the country in question is illegal.

As many people have said in this thread however, virtual representation may be an outlet for their urges and the legality of such is brought into question. You can virtually murder, this isn’t taboo, you can virtually steal, it isn’t a taboo, there are many things that bring into question the fairness of the law with regard to paedophiles fulfilling their urges virtually.

I still think there is a very clear line, obviously anything involving real children, in images or video, or even as the person behind a pixelated character, should definitely be illegal. It is some countries stance that even virtual representation is illegal, there’s no gray line there.

The only thing to be questioned is –why- it is illegal when so many other heinous acts in a virtual word aren’t even considered. It’s clearly the general consensus that it contributes to the likelihood of a paedophile acting out on a real child, but is this opinion founded on evidence? I don’t know of any clinical/psychological trial that has approached this, perhaps it should and perhaps it may be helpful to let them have access to such a thing in a virtual arena as in the long term, this may even reduce the number of real children suffering.
 
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platypus said:
At what point does a pixelated graphic of a person, be they minor or not, become real though? If they had been trading actual child pornography via Second Life, then yes they should be arrested. If, however, it is a graphical representation, then ultimately is there any harm?

I'm not saying that there is no harm for definite - I don't know. However, surely if people with paedophillic urges get their buzz from made up images, isn't that better then them getting their kicks from real images?

but isn't this just encouragment rather than harmless suppressent? Where does one draw the line of a graphical representation and real life. Games are becoming incredibly realistic to the point really they aren't games anymore. They are becoming a vitual extension to our mind state, a weapon. In the wrong hands they are lethal. However, I'm not saying that video games, films etc are the reason behind violent tendencies .. the individual must be that way inclind in the first place normally by being abused them selfs in some form or another.

Personally , I think it's sick!
 
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I think this is sick and wrong but then I'll go home tonight, stick on some GTA, and have a blast whereas I'm sure there are many people who think beating people to death in order to steal their car and use it to run down 10 police officers is also sick and wrong.

Whats the difference?

If these sicko's use the internet INSTEAD of real children then surely thats a good thing? Where is the crime?

What crime have they comitted by doing stuff in a virtual environment that I've not commited by ruthlessly murdering somebody whilst playing Battlefield 2?
 
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eLbot said:
The only thing to be questioned is –why- it is illegal when so many other heinous acts in a virtual word aren’t even considered. It’s clearly the general consensus that it contributes to the likelihood of a paedophile acting out on a real child, but is this opinion founded on evidence?
Quite - I see plenty of outrage from people on these forums when the usual PC brigade band around the idea that violent pc games lead to violence in real life. If those people are so adamant that violent pc games should be allowed to flourish, because they don't cause problems in real life, then how is paedophilia any different? In the case of using real images, then yes they should be jailed for life.

Admiral Huddy said:
but isn't this just encouragement rather than harmless suppressent? Where does one draw the line of a graphical representation and real life. Games are becoming incredibly realistic to the point really they aren't games anymore. They are becoming a vitual extension to our mind state, a weapon. In the wrong hands they are lethal. However, I'm not saying that video games, films etc are the reason behind violent tendencies .. the individual must be that way inclind in the first place normally by being abused them selfs in some form or another.

Personally , I think it's sick!
Read my paragraph above Huddy - I know what you're saying, but you must also see my point?

Yes its sick, but then I find the idea of BDSM unpleasant, yet millions get their kicks from it.
 
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