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30 Minutes - Iraq: The Failure of War

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Spie, 13 Jan 2006.

  1. Spie


    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 13,055

    Just watched journalist and UN ambassador Martin Bell's excellent 30 minutes program on channel 4 about the Iraq war.

    I can't remember the last time I watched a documentary and agreed with every single word the journalist said. Just how feeble the case for war was. The total inability of the Labour government to understand the reality of war. The way the press sensationalise it as if it was a video game. He's so right.
  2. teaboy5


    Joined: 12 Jan 2006

    Posts: 5,550

    Location: NI

    But given the bigger picture, can you not understand that we must secure future oil reserves? And this being the main reason we went to war in the first place.
  3. kibblerok


    Joined: 21 Nov 2002

    Posts: 5,011

    Location: Manchester

    From what I understand it wasnt the actual oil itself, it was Iraqs threat to sell oil in Euros instead of US Dollars
  4. afraser2k


    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 7,516

    Location: Glasgow

    I was (and many ways still am) a supporter of the war in Iraq but I knew it would get ugly in the aftermath with a possible civil war. I thought the true test of the US policy would be their handling of any "peace" and I think they've really messed that up.

    With the "evidence" I thought that the US/UK were trying to get the EU onside due to Blair insisting that Bush couldn't go ahead with an invasion without their support. I read a few sources that Bush wasn't bothered about the EU but it was actually Blair that wanted international support to legitimise the "invasion" to his friends in Europe and Middle-Eastern countries.

    Now I don't think the general public really care about Iraq and that's the saddest thing about the whole affair, they just want it to go away like Bush/Blair. :(

    As for the press they're only interested in either showing lots of human suffering or the body count. Quite frankly I think the US had run out of ideas for Hollywood war movies and needed a new one for the story writers. :rolleyes:

    Oh and I still don't think it was about oil or the control of it though.
  5. PlacidCasual


    Joined: 13 May 2003

    Posts: 6,984

    I thought toppling Saddam would be a good idea too but I had a lack of imagination for how badly they would handle the aftermath.

    Disbanding the army, not stopping the looting and failing to prepare to restore essential services.

    My company built a power station from scratch in 16 weeks once. You can fit small gas turbines in temporary housings in days for pities sake why didn't they have a few cargo boats loaded with diesel generators and gas turbine generators waiting to restore power in the first week or two after they got control it would have been such an obvious sign they were in control. Instead we just showed the backward parochial ones that we weren't prepared and gave them the confidence to destroy stabillity.

    No planning for after Saddam a bigger crime than going to war in the first place.
  6. KingOfAquitaine


    Joined: 30 Sep 2005

    Posts: 312

    My only complaint was that in his list of wars, he didnt mention Kosovo (sp), where military power was employed by NATO to stop genocide, after all it was a program about the rights/wrongs of bringing arms to bear on another country.

    Other than that, pretty good I felt
  7. willd58


    Joined: 25 May 2004

    Posts: 5,797

    Location: Bristol England

    I didnt see the documentory, but i can tell via the title that its got an agenda and opinion and will therefore apeal to people who share the opinion, its called the circle jerk affect for want of a better expression, and it isnt good journalism nor documentation.
  8. conundrum


    Joined: 11 Jan 2006

    Posts: 215

    Securing Oil reserves and or making sure the $ is king is a definite plus for the US mission in Iraq. I doubt that democracy will work in the long term there either.
  9. cheets64


    Joined: 30 Sep 2005

    Posts: 25,895

    Location: Wigan

    Its all about the PetroBenjamins

    If i was an Iraqi I would be standing up against the Americans and the Iraqi's who join to the police/security forces.
  10. Jake 2.0


    Joined: 16 Dec 2002

    Posts: 10,237

    WTF!!!! so you saying we can destroy any country that has something that we need?
  11. teaboy5


    Joined: 12 Jan 2006

    Posts: 5,550

    Location: NI

    Have you any idea what will happen when we start to run out of oil? So its a good idea to start protecting reserves now.
  12. Inquisitor


    Joined: 12 Apr 2004

    Posts: 11,788

    Location: Birmingham

    It's going to happen sooner or later anyway.
  13. Inquisitor


    Joined: 12 Apr 2004

    Posts: 11,788

    Location: Birmingham

    It's going to happen sooner or later. Anyway, it's not like the oil wouldn't be sold if the US/UK didn't invade, it would still be there.
  14. Universal


    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 2,506

    Location: London

    I remember reading about how the oil production has nearly halved since the war. War isn't going to help protect oil reserves.
  15. Hades


    Joined: 19 Oct 2002

    Posts: 25,655

    Location: Surrey

    There was a programme on yesterday (one of the Sky channels I think) discussing the possible alternate reasons for invading. One of those was that Iraq was setting up it's own oil trading market which would allow the sale of oil in Euros rather than dollars. The economic repercussions for the US and therefore the rest of the West are massive from this (huge dollar devaluation, rampant inflation, etc). This was given as one possible reason and is something I've followed for some time. It certainly seems plausable. One of the first actions the coalition took was to restore the sale of oil to dollars. Allegedly this is actually to Iraq's economic detrement but they did it nevertheless.

    Interestingly Iran is now believed to be planning to setup their own market which would again trade in Euro's.

    I don't think it's production which has halved but the discovery of oil which has reduced significantly. I forget the actual figures but we have not discovered any major fields since the 1960's (or thereabouts). However, the problem for the world is not that we will actually run out of oil but the economic impact of running out of cheap oil. This is what the Peak Oil theory is about. As we can see recently with gas (Ukraine/Russia), energy security is a growing issue and can certainly lead to disruption and possibly war.
    Last edited: 16 Jan 2006
  16. Errol

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 7 Jan 2005

    Posts: 2,178

    Which is precisely what Iran will start doing in March of this year, when it opens a petro-euro oil bourse.

    A very smart move by Iran, in my opinion. Hopefully this will signal the begining of the end for the dollar.
  17. 4T5

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 30 Aug 2004

    Posts: 27,746

    Location: Middle of England

    Actually Oil Production per Barrel has increased massively. From a Pre War figure of 1.5 Million Barrels a day to 4 Million barrels a day. The yanks are hoping to get production to 6 Million Barrels a day which will undermine Global Oil prices.
    As America contains only 5% of the Worlds population but uses 25% of its Oil having a dependance of 60% on Oil there intentions have Always been Odvious to me.
    Within 2 days of invading Iraqi they had control of the Gas Producing stations etc and stood by watching Hospitals getting Looted.
    Nuff said.
  18. RaohNS


    Joined: 23 Apr 2004

    Posts: 8,411

    Location: In the Gym

    i'm just reading this as i am going through some of ICES Law emails (work for Oil/Lubricant Company) and it seems that a good number of people are saying, yes glad the dollars going down or yes the americans are going to get it now. Although i cannot post the email i have as it is sensitive, i will say these things:

    firstly, with people jumping on the Petro-Euro, this will firstly have a quite big impact on the power of the Pound, as currently the Pound gets you 1.4+ Euro's, after this Petro-Euro this figure (as the Euro power will grow) will get you slightly less...

    secondly, a lot of people saying America are going to get it now.. our economy is so closely linked with the US economy that there will be serious repercussions for us and indeed many other countries that rely on the dollar, it wont just be a catastrophy (if it should occur) for America but for other countries as well

    >| Raoh |<
  19. anarchist


    Joined: 2 Dec 2004

    Posts: 9,702

    Location: Midlands

    Exactly - but do you think they will be allowed to? As I posted in the other thread, it seems military action is already being talked about. Supposedly a "last resort" but that's what they said about Iraq too...

    And yes Raoh, I agree that the effects on us of the American economy collapsing will be quite large - so not something to take lightly - although I have no idea how great the effect would be or how long it would take to recover from it.

    And as for Labour, let's not forget the Tories supported the war too. Michael Howard said on TV that he would have supported the war even if he knew for sure that Saddam had no WMDs.
  20. RaohNS


    Joined: 23 Apr 2004

    Posts: 8,411

    Location: In the Gym

    regards to Anarchist,

    basically its been said time and time again that so many nations do put so much of their faith in America, and their economies are intertwined, the collapse of a multi-trillion dollar/currency economy is good for the world in what way exactly?

    Its OK for developed nations i dare to say, as we have other means of acquiring an alternative (Russia as eg) but countries that are say in South America that rely on an Oil based dollar will at their own expense have to fork out possibly billions to get the oil to meet the needs of the country and its people (power for electricity and/or petrol for cars)

    Just had a thought with this likely to happen, do you think the price of coal will once again start to rise after several years of becoming cheaper and cheaper. As an environmental factor, what if wood suddenly (particularly in Brazil) becomes an even more important fuel, this will certainly result in much more rainforest being destroyed, currently there are around 3,000 football fields a day being lost are there not? So with this as an implication, this could indeed damage wild/plant life

    >| Raoh |<