5ghz WiFi card advice.

[OverDrive]

I’m thinking of getting Google Nest WiFi and putting my Virgin Media router into modem mode. At the moment I have my PC and NAS hooked up to the router via ethernet. As Google Nest only has one regular ethernet port, and I don’t really want to get a switch (more cables and an extra thing to plug in). I was thinking of either putting my PC or NAS on WiFi. My motherboard only supports 2.4ghz WiFi, so was thinking of a PCIe 5ghz card. Would there be any PC performance impacts related to adding a card like this compared to the usual onboard setup?
Thanks.

EDIT: just been looking at this: https://www.synology.com/en-global/compatibility?search_by=category&category=usb_wifi_dongles&p=1

Could maybe put the NAS on WiFi and continue with ethernet on PC.

 

[Avalon]

I’m thinking of getting Google Nest WiFi and putting my Virgin Media router into modem mode.

OK... some insight into the logic may help, eg what are you specifically trying to achieve? Faster wifi? Additional features not present in the SH3?

At the moment I have my PC and NAS hooked up to the router via ethernet. As Google Nest only has one regular ethernet port, and I don’t really want to get a switch (more cables and an extra thing to plug in). I was thinking of either putting my PC or NAS on WiFi.

So you’ve chosen to plug an extra device in with no clear idea why at this stage - presumably to
improve coverage/speed, but you object to plugging in another device that will actually give you better speed and more ports? Does that really seem logical to you? Your proposed solution is to buy something else that’s slower than what you had (in reality).

My motherboard only supports 2.4ghz WiFi, so was thinking of a PCIe 5ghz card. Would there be any PC performance impacts related to adding a card like this compared to the usual onboard setup?
Thanks.

EDIT: just been looking at this: https://www.synology.com/en-global/compatibility?search_by=category&category=usb_wifi_dongles&p=1

Could maybe put the NAS on WiFi and continue with ethernet on PC.

Start with the basics, what’s the issue, what are you trying to achieve and how much do you want to spend? Moving the NAS to wifi is a technically horrible idea and one that should be considered the last resort.

 

[OverDrive]

Thanks for the reply, appreciate your advice.

OK... some insight into the logic may help, eg what are you specifically trying to achieve? Faster wifi? Additional features not present in the SH3?

I’m currently getting a slow/unstable WiFi signal in some rooms upstairs. A device will typically drop 5ghz and pick up 2.4ghz with a weak signal. Giving me about 10-15mbps of my 100mbps connection. The connection then also occasionally drops out/re-connects. The same device will get 100-110mbps when connected on 5ghz downstairs (pretty much the same as my PC connected via Ethernet). I accept that WiFi performance will degrade further away from the router and have no issue with the device switching over to the slower/longer range 2.4ghz signal. However, I would like a stable connection, and ideally a little faster - I’d be happy with 30-40mbps upstairs if it were stable. The 2.4ghz performance of the SH3 appears to be generally poor compared to my previous SH2 A/C.

So you’ve chosen to plug an extra device in with no clear idea why at this stage - presumably to
improve coverage/speed, but you object to plugging in another device that will actually give you better speed and more ports? Does that really seem logical to you? Your proposed solution is to buy something else that’s slower than what you had (in reality).

The reason I'm considering the Google Nest WiFi platform is because of the meshing/roaming ability on the same network. I don’t have any unrealistic expectations about a major speed boost upstairs, a stable connection is more important. Switching the Virgin device to modem mode and connecting a new router is already plugging in an additional device and a switch would be yet another thing to plug in. I don’t want to create a big mess under my desk. I do however accept that nothing beats a solid Ethernet connection, hence why my PC is hooked up that way. Thanks for the advice re the NAS though, I will take it.

While the Google (Nest) WiFi platforms have received positive reviews, I accept that they are not advanced in terms of features/configuration and are very much consumer focused devices. However, the only features I use are DHCP reservation and port forwarding for my Syno NAS. I have also disabled UPnP for additional security.

Start with the basics, what’s the issue, what are you trying to achieve and how much do you want to spend? Moving the NAS to wifi is a technically horrible idea and one that should be considered the last resort.

My NAS runs a PLEX server which I access via my PC and Smart TV, I don’t stream any 4K content though, my current NAS is not powerful enough to trans-code it, just regular FHD files. I also store my FLAC files on it which I access via my hifi streamer.

If I were to go for the Google platform, I was wondering if the addition of a 5ghz WiFi adaptor in my PC would have any adverse performance impacts in terms of the PCIe BUS? I would use the single Ethernet port for the NAS.

My maximum budget for this project would be £200-250. I would also happily consider alternative solutions. I was just quite impressed about what I've read about meshing etc and platforms like Google which essentially make it fool proof. I'm not afraid to tinker with more advanced platforms though.

 

[OverDrive]

Apologies, made some edits after posting.

 

[Avalon]

If it were me, I’d spend £60-£70 on a Unifi AC-Lite or similar and run a cable from the router to the AP upstairs, this will give you wifi coverage upstairs for minimal cost and can easily be expanded. Yes, you do need to plug in a PoE injector somewhere, but going this route is way under budget and only requires minimal effort and keeps your other devices wired for maximum speed and reliability.

Plex wise, if you are having to transcode local content with Plex, you are probably doing something wrong.

Look at the three C’s:

• Content - If you make the wrong choices when encoding or selecting the content on your server, you needlessly have to transcode. If your device doesn’t support h265, then don’t download h265 files.

• Connectivity - High bit-rate and wifi are not ideal, so don’t do it. Also multiple clients on wifi or your neighbours making poor choices will exacerbate the situation.

• Client - Pick clients that can direct play your content.

So shoving an underpowered 1st gen. FTV stick between a solid wall and an RF shielded screen and expecting it to stream 50Mbit 4K HEVC via wifi is probably not going to end well. Hard wire a 2nd gen FTV4K or better yet a Nvidia Shield in and you’ll not have an issue. Either way local transcoding shouldn’t normally be a thing, except in specific or exceptional circumstances. Eg your lounge set-up supports exotic audio formats and your bedroom doesn’t, or for example XB1/PS4 require a remux to direct stream, obviously remote clients are a different story. You mention not being able to transcode 4K, honestly, you shouldn’t be, especially not locally. Transcoding 4K H264 is resource heavy, circa 14-16K of CPU Mark depending on the bit-rate, if that 4K happens to be H265, it’s way more intensive, and if it’s HDR, it’ll look like washed out crap anyway. Also 4K transcoded is always output as 1080/8/SDR by Plex (at best), so you’d be better having a 1080 to begin with. This is why you normally use something like Tautulli scripting to prevent people transcoding 4K content and ideally split the library. Things are slowly changing with HDR, but the upstream fix for tome mapping is still not going to be penalty free when it becomes available and usable.

If you did go for the google wifi option, then no, the PCIe bus would be fine, wifi is relatively low in terms of bandwidth used, USB 3 and an extension lead would likely be just as quick and allow you to move the adapter to get the best possible signal quality though.

 

[WJA96]

If you have £250 I’d go with a UniFi dream machine and add meshed UniFi access points if required. But they probably won’t be.

 

[OverDrive]

Thank you both for the information. Sorry for the delay in reply, I've been away.

If it were me, I’d spend £60-£70 on a Unifi AC-Lite or similar and run a cable from the router to the AP upstairs, this will give you wifi coverage upstairs for minimal cost and can easily be expanded. Yes, you do need to plug in a PoE injector somewhere, but going this route is way under budget and only requires minimal effort and keeps your other devices wired for maximum speed and reliability.

This sounds like a cost effective solution, it will most likely involve some drilling to run the cable though.

Thanks also for all the info re: transcoding, or rather the importance of not doing it locally. My NAS contains rips of much of my old DVD collection that does not require transcoding thankfully. I don't have any 4K files yet, although I do have a 4K TV now. I like the three C's.

If you have £250 I’d go with a UniFi dream machine and add meshed UniFi access points if required. But they probably won’t be.

I've been reading up on the Dream Machine, it looks very impressive. How would it perform in terms of WiFi signal strength in comparison to my Virgin router? I imagine it will of course be better. I notice the wireless specs on the Ubiquity site are specified as:

• TX Power:
  - 2.4 GHz: 23 dBm
  - 5 GHz: 26 dBm (Including antenna gain. Maximum TX power level may be limited by user's country-specific regulations.)
• Antenna: 1 x Dual-Band, Quad-Polarity Antenna
• Antenna Gain:
  - 2.4 GHz: 3 dBi
  - 5 GHz: 4.5 dBi
• Wi-Fi Standards: 802.11 a/b/g/n/ac/ac-wave2
• Wireless Security: WEP, WPA-PSK, WPA-Enterprise (WPA/WPA2, TKIP/AES), 802.11w/PMF
• BSSID: Up to 8 per Radio

If this provides a stable signal upstairs, then it may be all I need. It also gives me a very cool piece of new technology to play with. I'm more interested in signal stability than outright speed upstairs.

I've also been looking at the Netgear Orbi RBK50 since I last posted. It looks much better than the Google system as it has a dedicated 5ghz backhaul and 4 ethernet ports on the router, meaning my PC and NAS can stay physically connected. I can get one used for about £160. Any thoughts on this?

I must admit, I am leaning towards the Dream Machine now, it looks like a good investment and over time I may be able to use more of it's features.

Thanks again.

 

[WJA96]

It’s entirely possible the UDM won’t be any better for Wireless LAN than your SH3. All WLAN systems are rigidly controlled on signal output strength so you can’t shout any louder with a UDM than an SH3 and it’s ALWAYS the WLAN client that dictates the range of the WLAN anyway. A mobile phone or tablet just can’t shout back to the access point as loud as the access point can shout at the mobile phone. If you and I stand at either end of a football pitch and you’ve got a loud hailer and I don’t then I can hear you but you can’t hear me. The result is no communication. Mesh systems solve this problem by adding extra people at the 20-yard boxes and half-way line who relay the messages between us. But that’s slower and more prone to errors. Which is why mesh systems are slower and more prone to errors than direct communication WLAN systems.

The bottom line is always - if you can run a cable, that’s best. If you can’t, then try and get some form of wireless survey done. If you do end up getting a UDM, make sure you either allow for a second UniFi access point for it to mesh with, or make sure you can send it back if it’s no better than your existing Superhub.

I don’t have any experience with Netgear Orbi. The dedicated 5GHz backhaul is worth thinking about because anything else is going to be half the speed, but a cable is 4-6 times the speed of the fastest WLAN.

 

[bremen1874]

A mobile phone or tablet just can’t shout back to the access point as loud as the access point can shout at the mobile phone.

The continue your analogy, it's possible for an access point to have better hearing (antenna design and gain) so the device doesn't need to shout louder to be heard.

 

[OverDrive]

It’s entirely possible the UDM won’t be any better for Wireless LAN than your SH3. All WLAN systems are rigidly controlled on signal output strength so you can’t shout any louder with a UDM than an SH3 and it’s ALWAYS the WLAN client that dictates the range of the WLAN anyway. A mobile phone or tablet just can’t shout back to the access point as loud as the access point can shout at the mobile phone. If you and I stand at either end of a football pitch and you’ve got a loud hailer and I don’t then I can hear you but you can’t hear me. The result is no communication. Mesh systems solve this problem by adding extra people at the 20-yard boxes and half-way line who relay the messages between us. But that’s slower and more prone to errors. Which is why mesh systems are slower and more prone to errors than direct communication WLAN systems.

The bottom line is always - if you can run a cable, that’s best. If you can’t, then try and get some form of wireless survey done. If you do end up getting a UDM, make sure you either allow for a second UniFi access point for it to mesh with, or make sure you can send it back if it’s no better than your existing Superhub.

I don’t have any experience with Netgear Orbi. The dedicated 5GHz back haul is worth thinking about because anything else is going to be half the speed, but a cable is 4-6 times the speed of the fastest WLAN.

The continue your analogy, it's possible for an access point to have better hearing (antenna design and gain) so the device doesn't need to shout louder to be heard.

Thank you! Very interesting posts and great analogies!

I will always have my PC and NAS hooked up via ethernet. The other devices I use (aside from my TV and hifi streamer) are work laptops and phones/tablets, so less of a concern for throughput. So perhaps the Orbi system will be sufficient. Incidentally my hifi streamer is in the same room and on the same surface as the router, so this should also really be hooked up via ethernet.

As the Orbi system is coming on for a couple of years old now there are used examples popping up. The dedicated 5ghz backhaul seems to provide a better solution than the Google platforms. Although I imagine several 5ghz channels are blocked by it, less of an issue (for now) on 5ghz I guess.

The UDM does look impressive, I wonder why it doesn't support WiFi 6 though? For an enthusiast bit of kit I would have expected it. Ubiquiti do some fantastic kit, very impressive.

 

[WJA96]

The UDM does look impressive, I wonder why it doesn't support WiFi 6 though? For an enthusiast bit of kit I would have expected it. Ubiquiti do some fantastic kit, very impressive.

WiFi 6 wasn’t finalised when the UDM was first released to Beta. There is supposed to be a UDM ‘black’ that has PoE and possibly 802.11AX but it’s not even in Alpha yet, so it’s at least 6 months off, if not longer. As I say, if you can get a UDM to test, if it’s better, keep it, if not, return it and get a mesh system.

 

[WJA96]

The continue your analogy, it's possible for an access point to have better hearing (antenna design and gain) so the device doesn't need to shout louder to be heard.

Yes, this is true, but the UDM doesn’t have ‘ears’ as good as the HD-Nano it’s based on, let alone as good as the AP-AC-HD, so I wouldn’t make any great claims for it in that regard. I’ve tested them all back to back and it’s AP-AC-HD>UAP-HD-Nano>AP-AC-LR>UDM.