93 pub smoking days left in the U.K.

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Tru said:
I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we get a loud music ban in pubs and clubs, after all, it's anti-social and it damages the health of workers.

I bloody hope not or I'm out of a job.

I gigged at a pub on friday and they've had a decibel meter put in by the council because of complaints. I stood about 10 foot from it singing the high bit to Run To The Hills (without a mic) and it kept cutting off the light we'd got plugged into it :( I found another plug that wasn't connected :)
 
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Tru said:
Just playing devils advocate, I'd like to hear an argument against banning loud music in public places that doesn't apply to smoking as well.

Ok, I'll have a go at playing devils advocate too although as I've said previously smoking itself doesn't bother me much but that aside I'm not sorry the ban is in place.

If I go to a gig I can wear earplugs to deaden the worst excesses and not look out of place or anti-social, I can't wear a filtration mask to do the same thing for smoke.
Loud music can be enjoyable for the the whole room (it isn't necessarily) but unless you have a fairly select group of people I don't think the same can be said for smoking.
There is also possible an argument that it is easier to eliminate the effects of loud music (earplugs, sound-damping materials to protect the neighbours etc) than it is to remove smoke to a level effective medically speaking (if you accept passive smoking does exist because not all do).

Thats just a few ideas off the top of my head but there are quite possibly more. :)
 

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semi-pro waster said:
Ok, I'll have a go at playing devils advocate too although as I've said previously smoking itself doesn't bother me much but that aside I'm not sorry the ban is in place.

If I go to a gig I can wear earplugs to deaden the worst excesses and not look out of place or anti-social, I can't wear a filtration mask to do the same thing for smoke.
Loud music can be enjoyable for the the whole room (it isn't necessarily) but unless you have a fairly select group of people I don't think the same can be said for smoking.
There is also possible an argument that it is easier to eliminate the effects of loud music (earplugs, sound-damping materials to protect the neighbours etc) than it is to remove smoke to a level effective medically speaking (if you accept passive smoking does exist because not all do).

Thats just a few ideas off the top of my head but there are quite possibly more. :)
I'm not an expert but I can't see it being any harder, or more costly, to effect a ventilation system that minimises the secondary fumes from cigarettes. It's certainly a lot easier to limit smoke 'pollution' to the people who chose to enter the venue, than it is to limit the noise pollution.

I thought of the earplugs thing, I've never seen (or possibly noticed) anyone wearing earplugs in a club. I, personally, wouldn't wear them, even though I find excessively loud music a lot more annoying than smoke. Come to think of it, I've seen lots of people wearing dust masks in clubs, although probably not for the good of their health.

What happens if there's an explosion of tinnitus sufferers in the next 15-20 years? Will that be when the government stamp down on loud music?
 
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Tru said:
What happens if there's an explosion of tinnitus sufferers in the next 15-20 years? Will that be when the government stamp down on loud music?

No smoke or loud music? I'm not that lucky.

If they could legislate on serving decent beer too I'd have died and gone to heaven :)
 
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Tru said:
I'm not an expert but I can't see it being any harder, or more costly, to effect a ventilation system that minimises the secondary fumes from cigarettes. It's certainly a lot easier to limit smoke 'pollution' to the people who chose to enter the venue, than it is to limit the noise pollution.

I thought of the earplugs thing, I've never seen (or possibly noticed) anyone wearing earplugs in a club. I, personally, wouldn't wear them, even though I find excessively loud music a lot more annoying than smoke. Come to think of it, I've seen lots of people wearing dust masks in clubs, although probably not for the good of their health.

What happens if there's an explosion of tinnitus sufferers in the next 15-20 years? Will that be when the government stamp down on loud music?

If you go to a club or gig you go because you want the loud music and you enjoy it. If you go to a gig and complain that the music's too loud, what are you doing there anyway?!

If you go to a pub or restaurant you don't want to have the air between your fork and mouth thickened by noxious fumes. Likewise if you're drinking. You want to be able to enjoy what you've paid for without swatting smoke away from your mouth.

Those who smoke are now in the minority and no matter what excuse you give as a smoker, it's not fair to pollute the air in a restaurant or pub with your smoke since it's increasingly common you will be the only one doing it. It's selfish and antisocial. Thankfully - and correctly - that right is now being withdrawn since times have changed a lot since the 70s and 80s.

And before anyone has a go at me, I used to smoke for nine years and I loved it, but now I've stopped I can see what a pain it must have been for other people. When I was smoking I would invent x, y, z reasons as to why I had the right to smoke in front of other people in pubs etc. Now that that right has been withdrawn, it should hopefully make some people think about WHY the right has been withdrawn rather than the whole easy to fall into 'Big Brother taking away our freedom' argument.
 
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Tru said:
I'm not an expert but I can't see it being any harder, or more costly, to effect a ventilation system that minimises the secondary fumes from cigarettes. It's certainly a lot easier to limit smoke 'pollution' to the people who chose to enter the venue, than it is to limit the noise pollution.

I thought of the earplugs thing, I've never seen (or possibly noticed) anyone wearing earplugs in a club. I, personally, wouldn't wear them, even though I find excessively loud music a lot more annoying than smoke. Come to think of it, I've seen lots of people wearing dust masks in clubs, although probably not for the good of their health.

What happens if there's an explosion of tinnitus sufferers in the next 15-20 years? Will that be when the government stamp down on loud music?

Technically to limit noise pollution to those who walk into a club is the easiest of all, you just turn down the music. ;) That would suit me fine most of the time. But more seriously, it could well be easier to limit smoke pollution through adequate ventilation however I don't know about the effects of the carginogens, do they hang around in the air or do they just get sucked away with the smell? I'd assume the latter but I couldn't say for definite.

I don't think I've seen anyone wearing earplugs in a club either although I have at gigs where people have worn them, some of the more advanced ones filter sound so that normal conversation can still be attempted I believe. I dunno about the dust masks and how effective they are/were but that was the rave scene? Before my time going out really and it is difficult to claim too much concern for your health when popping pills (or drinking come to that).

It is possible although I think a bit unlikely, however that was probably said about the smoking ban as well.

//edit Lysander - the problem is the freedom of choice argument cuts both ways, if you want to go into a club to enjoy loud music then some other people will want to go in so they can smoke(and enjoy the loud music).
 

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Lysander said:
If you go to a club or gig you go because you want the loud music and you enjoy it. If you go to a gig and complain that the music's too loud, what are you doing there anyway?!

If you go to a pub or restaurant you don't want to have the air between your fork and mouth thickened by noxious fumes. Likewise if you're drinking. You want to be able to enjoy what you've paid for without swatting smoke away from your mouth.

Those who smoke are now in the minority and no matter what excuse you give as a smoker, it's not fair to pollute the air in a restaurant or pub with your smoke since it's increasingly common you will be the only one doing it. It's selfish and antisocial. Thankfully - and correctly - that right is now being withdrawn since times have changed a lot since the 70s and 80s.

And before anyone has a go at me, I used to smoke for nine years and I loved it, but now I've stopped I can see what a pain it must have been for other people. When I was smoking I would invent x, y, z reasons as to why I had the right to smoke in front of other people in pubs etc. Now that that right has been withdrawn, it should hopefully make some people think about WHY the right has been withdrawn rather than the whole easy to fall into 'Big Brother taking away our freedom' argument.

You're comparing a club/gig to a bar/restaurant here. I agree with no smoking in places that serve food, but a club is a different matter.

There's loud music, and there's excessively loud, when you have to shout at your date, friends and the bar staff, it's too loud.

It's up to the venue how loud they play their music, how expensive their drinks are and what the dress code is, why, then, are they not allowed to decide on their smoking policy? Surely if smokers are in such a minority then all the clubs would be forced to go non-smoking to keep the punters? A pub could allow smoking only after it's kitchen closes, social clubs could allow their members to vote on the issue.

It's strange the way you dismiss the 'civil liberties' point, is this because it's a liberty you don't enjoy? What happens when the government wants to ban something you do enjoy?
 
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Tru said:
There's loud music, and there's excessively loud, when you have to shout at your date, friends and the bar staff, it's too loud.

I agree with this for clubs but not for gigs. I have been to clubs in the past where I've had to shout into a person's ear when they were next to me and they still didn't hear me. Places like that are awful.


Tru said:
It's strange the way you dismiss the 'civil liberties' point, is this because it's a liberty you don't enjoy? What happens when the government wants to ban something you do enjoy?

Good question. To be honest though, there is very little - if anything - I do when I'm out that hinders other peoples' enjoyment of whatever it is they're doing. The whole reason why smoking is being banned is because it's unhealthy for the majority and it's antisocial - there's nothing I do which effects anyone else like that on any level. If the government tried to ban my listening to music on an mp3 player or the like I'd be annoyed, yes, but that's not likely to happen because it doesn't affect anyone else.

People are given rights to do things. Likewise those rights can be taken away. As soon as they're taken away the people who indulged in them think it's unfair that they can't do that thing anymore without realising that they were permitted to do it in the first place. Which rights are enforced or not depends on the shape of contemporary attitudes, knowledge and concerns. We now all know that smoking is unhealthy and bad for anyone who comes into contact with the smoke - so bad that it can kill. And it has done, many times. There are people who have died from passive smoking. I don't think it's unfair to assume that such a ban is anything but a good and fair thing.
 

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semi-pro waster said:
Technically to limit noise pollution to those who walk into a club is the easiest of all, you just turn down the music. ;) That would suit me fine most of the time. But more seriously, it could well be easier to limit smoke pollution through adequate ventilation however I don't know about the effects of the carginogens, do they hang around in the air or do they just get sucked away with the smell? I'd assume the latter but I couldn't say for definite.

I don't think I've seen anyone wearing earplugs in a club either although I have at gigs where people have worn them, some of the more advanced ones filter sound so that normal conversation can still be attempted I believe. I dunno about the dust masks and how effective they are/were but that was the rave scene? Before my time going out really and it is difficult to claim too much concern for your health when popping pills (or drinking come to that).

It is possible although I think a bit unlikely, however that was probably said about the smoking ban as well.

//edit Lysander - the problem is the freedom of choice argument cuts both ways, if you want to go into a club to enjoy loud music then some other people will want to go in so they can smoke(and enjoy the loud music).

Someone on here said to me that the smell is the smoke (particulate I think was the word) so if there's no smoke there's no nasties, I would assume.

My main problem with this ban, (as I said before, I enjoy the fact that I don't reek of smoke when I get home), is the way the Government have waded in with their legislation.

I can understand the argument (although I completely disagree) for having public venues as no-smoking areas, but I've yet to see a reason for the Government taking the decision out of the proprietors hands.
 
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I'm looking forward to seeing crowds of smokers outside the doors of pubs, and non-smokers having to dive through a wall of smoke just to get inside.

This new law just moves the problem area around slightly, it doesn't stop it altogether.
 
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Pixel said:
I'm looking forward to seeing crowds of smokers outside the doors of pubs, and non-smokers having to dive through a wall of smoke just to get inside.

This new law just moves the problem area around slightly, it doesn't stop it altogether.

Have you been anywhere the ban has been implemented? I only ask because in Scotland and Canada, there isn't this impenetrable wall of smoke, it tends to just disperse in the air pretty quickly particularly with the breezes we get in Scotland. Also walking through a cloud of smoke (if it exists) is over a lot quicker than sitting in a smokey pub, it takes me probably 30 seconds to cross the threshhold of a pub but maybe 15-20 minutes to have a leisurely pint. :)
 
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semi-pro waster said:
Have you been anywhere the ban has been implemented? I only ask because in Scotland and Canada, there isn't this impenetrable wall of smoke, it tends to just disperse in the air pretty quickly particularly with the breezes we get in Scotland. Also walking through a cloud of smoke (if it exists) is over a lot quicker than sitting in a smokey pub, it takes me probably 30 seconds to cross the threshhold of a pub but maybe 15-20 minutes to have a leisurely pint. :)

I've been to Scotland recently, but didn't have time to check out the pubs. I smoke outside when I'm at home, rain or shine, day or night, always have done. On those long, muggy, summer nights, when I'm stood at my front door, the smoke lingers there for quite a noticeable period of time, I can only imagine what it'll be like with say 10 people stood there smoking too.

Look at the time of year the smoking ban is coming in... I don't know about the rest of the country, but Lincolnshire gets extremely humid and sticky during the summer months.

I'm not saying it's as bad as having to breathe in smoke during the whole night in the pub, but it's still a problem.
 
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dmpoole said:
I gigged at a pub on friday and they've had a decibel meter put in by the council because of complaints. I stood about 10 foot from it singing the high bit to Run To The Hills (without a mic) and it kept cutting off the light we'd got plugged into it :( I found another plug that wasn't connected :)


I meant to tell you this friday night but you were surrounded by about six teenage girl rockers all trying to touch your legs :) I was outside with my mate who was having his drug fix because they already use a smoking ban in the pub and as soon as you kicked in with Heatseeker, the neighbours who are doing all the complaining opened up their windows and back door :eek: I just stared at the bloke and shrugged my shoulders.

Playing devils advocate I choose to go in a smoky pub and a loud pub and I'm not looking forward to going outside with my mates all the time. I can also wear plugs in my ears too to combat the noise.
 
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