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ATI 6000 series, possibly by end of year!

Discussion in 'Graphics Cards' started by opethdisciple, 8 Jun 2010.

  1. opethdisciple

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 May 2010

    Posts: 21,321

    Location: London

  2. tommybhoy

    Capodecina

    Joined: 30 Mar 2010

    Posts: 11,752

    Location: Under The Stairs!

    Don't know if Ati will get away with just a refresh as Nvidia must be able to improve on fermi by then.
     
  3. Geckovich

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 27 Nov 2008

    Posts: 2,266

    Location: Cambridge

    Not until a Die shrink, by which time ATI will be able to ship Northern Islands anyway.
     
  4. drunkenmaster

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 33,194

    Performance takes transistors, architecture changes account for VERY little performance difference, its all about more transistors, Fermi is HUGE, theres exactly no where at all for them to go in terms of a continuation of Fermi, which would require more shaders, more transistors and more size. It can't make the current one at a profit, one half as big again would basically be unmakeable, remember the current Fermi can't release a single fully enabled 512shader part because yields are so bad, no way in hell they could make a 768shader one.

    There will not be a new "fermi" until 28nm, there "could" be a new Nvidia architecture on 40nm, they need something FAR more compact with much more performance per transistor used, and really no one can see that happening.

    As for a refresh, where does it say refresh exactly, 6xxx series, not a 5970/5990, its likely to be bigger, but not massively better.
     
  5. el Kuarlos

    Hitman

    Joined: 28 Nov 2009

    Posts: 881

    Location: Manchester

    I m going out on a limb and saying this is the gpu that will really break nvidia. All they have to do is scale up the 5000 series, no pressure, its not like they need to respond to nvidia.

    If they do manage to make the design more efficient by a significant amount. Green team will be in massive trouble.

    They have a lot of room to play with. Add £100 to die cost, 20% to die size, 20C to peak thermals, higher power draw, better cooler, tack on the features nvidia has i.e. 3d, cuda and physx, and what are you left with? 5870 isnt far off a 480, what would a chip that really pushed the limits ati so far have only touched do. And any complaints, they can just point at nvidia and say 'they did it first'.

    It boggles me how anyone can still say fermi is a great architecture- if they are going to claim anything they should say ATI were not ambitious enough, had they gone all out and released a 5890, with bigger die, hotter and higher cost...the 480 would have been utterly slain.
     
    Last edited: 8 Jun 2010
  6. GeneralD

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 9 Mar 2008

    Posts: 1,512

    I wouldnt be suprised, we went from rumours of a total new AMD arch, to, a hybrid to a sort of refinement. Fermis performance no doubt relaxed the ATi development schedule I would imagen, no sense straining a new chip that isnt nescesary. Though as above, new arch doesnt = second coming of christ, still I think AMD are taking there foot of the gas so to speak.
     
  7. Martini1991

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Sep 2009

    Posts: 29,104

    Location: Dormanstown.

    No, 32nm failing is what changed AMD's plans.
     
  8. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 13 Oct 2006

    Posts: 75,411

    GF100 is a great architecture - it was just never designed for 40nm and too much got butchered shoe horning it in. They can actually double the performance in many key areas without a huge increase in complexity or die size but unfortunatly thats about as possible on 40nm as doubling the number of SPs would be.

    Theres a reason why they said this when it comes to the ATI architecture also:

     
  9. GeneralD

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 9 Mar 2008

    Posts: 1,512

    No doubt influences, but if fermi performed as it was supposed to (target speeds and a 512 shaders etc), I really dont believe AMD would go down this route.
     
  10. Monkeynut

    Soldato

    Joined: 7 Nov 2007

    Posts: 6,551

    Location: Unknown

    Do you know this for fact and can provide evidence or are you working on assumption?
     
  11. JediFragger

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 25,104

    Location: y0 Mommas ***

    To be fair, it's probably in AMD's interests for nVidia not to fold
     
  12. [email protected]

    Caporegime

    Joined: 8 Nov 2008

    Posts: 27,834

    Another player in the market, one day...please. :)
     
  13. drunkenmaster

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 33,194

    Excuses excuses, the fact is, everyone else in the world has adapted the manufacturing available, making large monolithic designs is EASY, using a similar/basic/incredibly easy shader that takes up a huge amount of space is easy. Nvidia's problem for over 3 years has been failure to design for the production available to them, Intel can design for the production they can make, Nvidia aren't a manufacturer, they have no control on the process they use, they need to design for the processes they will use, they don't and thats why Fermi is a flop.

    Also no GF100 is a horrible design, we're in an age of high leakage very small transistor where the leakage will only get worse, its a design that would only work at incredibly high speeds that WERE NEVER available to it. Every generation for 3 years their monolithic core has been proving to be less and less effective due to manufacturing. GF100 is a truly awful design, a humoungous part of a succesful design is the ability to actually be able to make it, therefore, Fermi failed, because not a single 512shader part is out in the wild.

    GF100 is a great architecture in the same way the architecture I made was brilliant, its basically a GF100 but scaled up with 4000 shaders at 2Ghz, fantastic architecture, blows the competition away....... I just can't make it, no where can?

    I think what Rroff means is the design is a nice idea, of course old basic easy shaders run at breakneck speeds isn't a good design, its an OLD design.

    AMD's design isn't perfect, but space/transistor to performance efficiency is out of this world and obliterates Nvidia, and when we're talking about manufacturability being half the design battle, Fermi is a huge failure and AMD's is a huge win.
     
  14. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 13 Oct 2006

    Posts: 75,411

    As designs go its not bad, just not very well suited... and theres a real chance of seeing it on a suitable process so personally I'm holding off calling it bad til I've seen how well or not it works on its "home territory". Despite the core being same old same old nVidia theres some nice features too which have a lot of potential.
     
  15. guadizba

    Gangster

    Joined: 5 Dec 2009

    Posts: 145

    wonder how much improvement these will have over the current top-crop of 5000 series, performance wise.
     
  16. shiggz47

    Associate

    Joined: 23 May 2010

    Posts: 25

    I have heard rumblings of a minor architecture tweak in g104 460 could make a mid-range card people aren't scolded as fanboys for saying they own. It is apparently not the much rumored fermi 2 arch more like fermi 1.5. Usually card makers bend over-backwards to pretend their mid and low range cards have some architecture from their high-end. That it is now opposite for Nvidia does not bode well.

    As for ATI 6k series ill quote here what I put in another thread.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jun 2010
  17. jigger

    Capodecina

    Joined: 28 May 2007

    Posts: 13,705

    ATI will be looking to put a clear gap between them and the three Fermi cards while increasing on the yeilds over the 5000 cards.

    I think the Southern Islands hybrid core might be a lot better than people are expecting it to be.
     
  18. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 13 Oct 2006

    Posts: 75,411

    The only thing I would expect to be significantly faster on the SI hybrids is tessellation performance. Shader wise they are likely to be just slightly better optimized, higher clocked but otherwise similiar to the 5800 series.
     
  19. jigger

    Capodecina

    Joined: 28 May 2007

    Posts: 13,705

    Southern Island will be a bigger jump then what we seen from the 4870 - 4890 move and that was quite a decent performance increase.

    Tessellation performance will increase by default.
     
  20. opethdisciple

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 May 2010

    Posts: 21,321

    Location: London

    Personally Im hoping they improve the tesselation performance, of the new cards.

    Thats why Im holding off purchasing a 5870.... becuase, compared to Nvidia, its tesselation can be improved.