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Brillant Young Players .... Hype or Not?

Discussion in 'Sports Arena' started by Kop_Jedi, 26 Jul 2006.

  1. Kop_Jedi

    Gangster

    Joined: 25 Jul 2006

    Posts: 136

    Just had a very interesting pub discussion about this. I wondered if any other forum regulars had thoughts on whether we see young players get hyped well beyond their actual impact and ability.

    Obviously the usual names have come out; Torres, Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez. However, i feel that when you compare most of todays young prodigys they dont actually stand up to great young players.

    *Disclaimer-Rough stats*
    For example - Rooney scored i think 9 goals in his first season for Everton, thats hardly setting the world on fire (a wonderstrike aside), his next season was not much better at around 15. In fact he is now 20 and still hasnt hit 20 in a season (certainly not the league, or a hattrick?). Owen scored far more than that at a similar age.

    Torres is scoring 13-15 a year yet gets rave reviews. Now i appreciate his league is generally lower scoring than the EPL. Does he merit the hype? Well he had a good world cup but was i preferred Villa to him.

    Nearly any of the current hype machines dont compare to someone i had forgotten about. When you compare impact in the first few seasons. Name any player who has scored 30 or more in their first 3 seasons? (dutch league not allowed!) Ok how about a 50+ strike partnership who was U22?

    Well to be honest i couldnt either. But the answer is there......Robbie Fowler. He puts every single one of the current hype kids to shame.

    Five goals in his first home game....15 goals in his first 22 games at 18.... injured.... total for his first season : 18 goals from 33, 37 goal partnership with Rush.

    His second season.... fastest hat-trick since the War (gooner wince) 4:33 against you. 31 goals total for the season, 25 in the league, 50 goal partnership. Third season, 30+, another 50 partnership. Fourth season, 36 goals turns 21. Lastly, beats Ian Rush to the fastest 100 goals for Liverpool.

    I had forgotten what a true young player marvel was, until i read his book. I dont think any of todays young players come close to any of that.
     
  2. Gilly

    Man of Honour

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    The problem you have is that you're comparing Fowler to young players, none of whom except Torres are an out and out goal-getter. Rooney and Ronaldo certainly aren't.

    Yes, young players are over-hyped. This is probably detrimental to them as it raises expectations, and then someone comes along and looks at figures that paint their performances in a bad light and say they're not playing well...
     
  3. Rosbif

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 29 May 2006

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    i think you can only rely on goal stats when the player in question is a finishing striker... if they arent a finisher then it becomes a lot harder to judge their contribution to the team .. unless you have assist stats etc.. i dont :p rooney isnt a finisher but according to wikipedia hes scored 27 in 65 matches for manyoo ... thats pretty decent considering
     
  4. Oakesy2001uk

    Mobster

    Joined: 7 Sep 2005

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    strikers can contribute more to a team/season than goals you know!
     
  5. wedgie

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 18 Jan 2005

    Posts: 8,538

    Agreed, both Rooney and Torres contribute so much more to the team than simply goals. It's the all round performance that builds up the hype as opposed to simply counting their goal tally.

    Also, Fowler did start his career when the Premiership was still quite far behind the top leagues in Europe in terms of quality. The huge improvement in the quality of the Premiership over the past few years is probably a big factor in explaining why noone has done the same since.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2006
  6. Kop_Jedi

    Gangster

    Joined: 25 Jul 2006

    Posts: 136

    How did he? He was in a team which won the UEFA Cup, also before then Liverpool had won several European Cups. At the time of forming the Premiership was the strongest league in the world in terms of European Cups won in the 10 year period.

    Well strikers are paid to score, midfielders and wingers are assist merchants. Simply put i dont buy this 'so much more to the team', its holding the ball up, linking and scoring thats important for strikers. I think we buy into this other stuff far too much, he has 9 men on the pitch to create for him and his partner.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2006
  7. Gilly

    Man of Honour

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    Teams these days utilise goalscoring midfielders and forwards that link the play. Rooney is strictly speaking a forward, not a striker.

    You'd be better comparing Fowler to Shearer or Nistelrooy.
     
  8. Nismo

    Capodecina

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

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    Location: UK

    You are aware of the concept of playing different formations and strategies aren't you? ;)
     
  9. Oakesy2001uk

    Mobster

    Joined: 7 Sep 2005

    Posts: 3,312

    I think you will find that a team that has at least one striker contributing to the overall play as well as scoring a few goals (chelsea/Liverpool/utd with rooney)
    does better than a team who relies on their goals to come from one place (naming no names dont want to start an argument)

    UTD had it right with Rooney and RVN before Sir alex messed that one up. one natural goalscorer, one who scores goals, but starts moves, links play, assists and holds up also.
    Hopefully Liverpool will have it with bellamy and crouch/fowler/??

    Chelsea and liverpool get alot of goals from midfield, which is a great way to play, give great football and doesn't mean you are relying on one guy to win you games!
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2006
  10. Gilly

    Man of Honour

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    Why did you miss Arsenal out? They have a team that creates goals and someone who scores goals. Just because he creates himself doesn't take him out of that equation, it just makes him even better.
     
  11. Oakesy2001uk

    Mobster

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    but who knocks them in when he's not around? you could do with 2 henry's! lol (couldent we all)
    Your right, he kind of does both which is rare, fowler is annother example of a natural goal scorer who is creative these days. (obviously not quite henry standard but you get what I mean). Intersting to see what fowler does next season, seams to have the fire in his belly again, he should do some damage off the bench. Crouch does it with his knockdowns and layoffs, rooney comes back to get the ball and drives it forward linking play.
     
  12. Gilly

    Man of Honour

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    Ah, but the topic of discussion was regarding a goalscorer. You take the main goalgetter out of any team and they'll score less goals. That is evident :)
     
  13. Oakesy2001uk

    Mobster

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    yea I realise that, weve drifted off my point a little, but if your forward links play like chelsea and liverpool seem to do alot these days the goals come from everywhere including the strikers, and your less in the poo if you get an injury or someone has a bad game. If you have annother forward that is a natural goalscorer, that just makes this way of playeing even better. = why UTD still did ok, even though they had fletcher on the pitch! lol Chelsea take it to the extreme and stick a donkey up front (drogba) and let the midfield do all the work, I thaught they worked better with drogba linking to midfield by holding up and crespo banging in aswell as the midfielders. Now sheva is there this will just work better!

    I dont think I'm explaining myself very well but Ive tried! :p
     
  14. sanofi

    Wise Guy

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    The media machine tends to over hype a lot of things including young players, none of whom have really shone.

    The only two in recent history that have come to mind are Owen and Ronaldo (Real's). Both scored lots of goals at a young age, before both suffering from injury and have never been the same since.
     
  15. Greenlizard0

    Man of Honour

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    You know that raises a very interesting point. I read a journal somewhere a few years ago (please don't ask for a link lol) that stated young players being pushed so hard at said ages were much more at risk for long term injuries than those that say were let loose after 21 or 21. The body hasn't QUITE finished developing, and the constant stresses and strains of e.g. a full blown premiership season will lessen overall strength and recovary time from injuries.

    I know this is a loose comparison, but Owen and Ronaldo were never the same, but if you look at Ronaldhno and Henry the latter two very rarely seem to be out. Berkamp even when he arrived at Arsenal was never the out and out striker of his Ajax days.

    Just my two cents..
     
  16. Kop_Jedi

    Gangster

    Joined: 25 Jul 2006

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    Last point doesnt quite hold water, that about midfielders who run more? Stevie G, Roy K etc, all started young and both were fine.
     
  17. Dtab

    PermaBanned

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    Stevie G wasn't, he had a lot of trouble with his back in the early days,mainly because he was still growing
     
  18. Greenlizard0

    Man of Honour

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    Aye that's why I said it was a loose comparison lol. I thought Roy Keane was out a lot in recent years. Wasn't he origionally signed from (at the time) a lower league club?

    edit - this is something that makes me worry for cesc at arsenal. Next to Viera he could have some physical protection, but gilberto or hleb are just crap at the physical side of the game...:(
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2006
  19. sanofi

    Wise Guy

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    This does seem to apply but not to others, most probably due to the differences in the human body amongst people.

    True, Henry started at a young age at Monaco and so did Trezeguet. It also comes down to luck and physical conditioning too. For example, Ronaldo first broke his leg I believe at the San Siro and at the time the pitch was aweful and combine that with the tough takling of Seria A compared to his days in Spain or Holland, may have helped cause the injury.

    I remember reagin an interview former AC forward Dejan Savecavic (I think) where he mentioned that during his spell at AC, opposing defenders would intentionally focus on areas that had been previously injured when going in for the takle.

    The physicallity and pace of the game certainly has impacted on the younger players trying to develop too quickly which in the long term would be detrimental to their careers.
     
  20. wedgie

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 18 Jan 2005

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    It is an obsolute fact that at the time of forming the Premier League was far off being the best in the world, probably for the most part due to the ban imposed upon all english clubs entering european football a few years earlier. It may have been exciting and good to watch, but in terms of quality it was well behind the best.