Computers in cars....

[Del Lardo]

Originally posted by Flibster
I'm proposing a Campaign for real cars.

Wheels, seat, arse type things.

Aerial Atom - two thumbs up.
Lotus Elise and Exige- two thumbs up.
Radical - two thumbs up.
Escort Mk 2 - two thumbs up.
Lancia Stratos - two thumbs up.

As much as I love driving one of the cars on your approved list I would love it to have ABS. When the roads are dry the breaks on my Elise are amazing, in the wet and if the roads are greasy it is very easy to lock the front left wheel under medium strength breaking causing the back end to break away. This is not what you want when you're heading towards the back of another car or someone standing in the road. At the end of the day you always have a choice of how hard to accelerate but you don't always have a choice in how hard you need to decelerate, ABS provides a useful safety net that can help out even the most experienced driver.

 

[Bobbler]

Originally posted by Jono
and they try to park in spaces half the size of their car because they have PAS.

LOL @ that one, one that gets me is the super mini type cars that struggle to get into a space twice the size of their cars with PAS!

 

[moss]

I prefer both, for saftey alone ABS/PAS/Traction control etc are fantastic features, I do love driving cars without such aids too as it does give a more direct feel, but I think for general use they are great.
If they started producing cars without them imo they wouldnt sell all that well as people would simply see a povety spec list.

 

[Flibster]

Originally posted by GAmbrose
And are also two of the nicest 'fast' cars to drive...

Top Gear put the Evo with all it's computer aid against a 19080 Audi 80 Rally spec and it trounced it. I don't mind computer intervention if it's actually going to make me quicker in the real world.

Gary A

So the 20ish years inbetween them had nothing to do with it?

Originally posted by [TW]Fox
I think you are a hypocrit, given you drive around day to day in a power assisted, ABS fitted car with electric windows...

No fuse in the ABS or in the power assisted steering. Has made the car much better. For the 18-24months or so until I finish my project - dump the Renault on someone and have fun.

Since when have electric windows needed a computer? It's a switch??

Originally posted by Bobbler
LOL @ that one, one that gets me is the super mini type cars that struggle to get into a space twice the size of their cars with PAS!

Oh..the bloody girly button in fiats!!! The steering is so light and lifeless as standard..what do I want to make it worse for?!?!?

Originally posted by N43SP33D
Technology is the future, you are just showing your age

"In my day bla bla bla" - I hope you are old and wrinkley

Nope...I'm 26...

 

[[TW]Fox]

Originally posted by Bobbler
LOL @ that one, one that gets me is the super mini type cars that struggle to get into a space twice the size of their cars with PAS!

I see this every day around Uni. I'll often pull up behind somebody trying in vain to reverse park their Fiesta until eventually giving up, realising the space is just too small for their Fiesta.

So, I park the Mondeo in it

 

[blun]

Theres nothing wrong with technology in cars.

ABS allows me to brake on a wet road whilst steering around an obstacle.

Power steering means I can park without breaking into a sweat.

Stability / traction control I leave on during everyday driving because its handy to have it, and theres a button to turn it off should the mood take me. Besides, it normally only cuts in when you're doing something stupid!

 

[L0rdMike]

Stop having a girly fit and just accept how cars are being made now?

 

[Jono]

Ah you'll all be moaning when big brother puts another computer in your car so they can tell exactly where you are and where you've been...how fast you went etc..

 

[Flibster]

Originally posted by Jono
Ah you'll all be moaning when big brother puts another computer in your car so they can tell exactly where you are and where you've been...how fast you went etc..

I was offered that NU insurance due to my other half working there.

Turned it down immediately.

There is one interesting thing about it - there's a chap who my other half has to report any crime that he knows of in the company to the police.

Fair enough...

But with the new tracker insurance..if they find out that people speed..does he have to report it? Technically...yes...

Luckily it's only a trial at the moment.

Simon/~Flibster

 

[Lowe]

The only "electric" things in my car are the windows, aftermarket rev limiter and stereo.

No assisted steering, no ABS, no traction control, no ECU (!), no airbags, no yaw stuff. Nadda. It's as basic as it gets, and to be honest it's blummin hard work.

Makes you smile when you get it right though.

 

[needmorespeed]

when parking i wouldn't mind having power steering but when im driving round country roads i prefer not to have power steering.

 

[needmorespeed]

Originally posted by Lowe
The only "electric" things in my car are the windows, aftermarket rev limiter and stereo.

No assisted steering, no ABS, no traction control, no ECU (!), no airbags, no yaw stuff. Nadda. It's as basic as it gets, and to be honest it's blummin hard work.

Makes you smile when you get it right though.

combine that with rwd and a heavy car and then you have hard work

 

[Liverpool-Lad]

Even with no PAS and a 2.0 16v engine and gearbox over the front wheels the steering isnt that heavy even when making tight
manouveres. You just need to go the gym more!

Im my eyes theres less weight, less to go wrong and less cost all round.

 

[bioharryuk]

I love my ESP I can take a corner a bit too fast and all I have to do is pull the wheel a bit harder and the ESP light flickers and it takes the corner perfectly. It’s nice to know its there when you get a bit ham fisted.

Traction control is pointless in fwd cars imo as it reacts far too slowly. RWD I’m sure its essential. 4WD is where its at on today’s slippery roads and roundabouts.

 

[Mickey_D]

See, Liverpool Lad started to hit on the exact subject I am going to expound upon....

If you have all these electronic gizmos on your car, there is MUCH more to go wrong at the worst possible moment!!

Also car manufacturers tend to use the absolute cheapest (read junk) components they can on production cars.

So what happens when you've gotten used to all these neat little gizmos and aids and they all fail simultaneously right in the middle of a crisis situation?

If your car is equipped with:
ABS
Traction control
This new one I've heard of where if the computer senses you're starting to roll an SUV, it applies braking to one of the wheels and turns the steering wheel to maintain the corner, but stop the rollover
I'm not sure what this power steering thing is you folks are talking about. My truck has power steering, but there's nothing computerised about it.

What happens if all of a sudden your car loses battery power and all these things completely shut down just because the last time you had your car serviced someone didn't completely tighten down the battery cable? Now suddenly you're completely used to driving with these "driver aids" and you're in an emergency situation.

I'll tell you what'll happen : you'll lock the tyres and end up keeping them there because you don't know any different. You'll yank the steering wheel thinking you'll still be able to steer.
Anyone ever seen that vid where a lorry is plowed through a bunch of stationary cars on a dual carriageway? That'll be you in your fancy car that just crapped out on you at the worst possible moment.

And you KNOW it'll happen. It's called Murphy's Law!!

Computer control is all very well, but only if it can be COMPLETELY, 100% reliable in 100% of the situations you will ever come across in a car. I mean, look what happened to Apollo 13. A funky little fan I think it was almost killed those three guys. And a car goes through a LOT more use and abuse than that spacecraft.

Everywhere there is an electrical connection on a car is the chance for water intrusion, vibration, and just plain human error of forgetting to plug something all the way back in again.

There comes a time when you just have to take the time to learn how to drive your car and understand what it (and you) are going to do in emergency situations.

Giving a computer control of your car is NOT the way to do it!!

 

[Sin_Chase]

Ill take ABS and PAS thanks.

The rest I dont care for, traction control and ESP.. I can see thier merits 100% for the avergae Joe driver.

Its like plating 10 pin Bowling with the sides up, sure you got a strike.. but you didn't really.. and I feel like I have cheated myself.

I want ABS because I know it could save my life... and its good to have, but I DO know how to brake without it. My first car had no computer gubbins and only had power steering. Plenty of times I have had to emergency brake outside of my test and was able to stop the car fine.

Theres my 2 cents and a new marketting slogan for 'Raw' extremist vehicle manufacturers.

"Traction Control and Computer Asisted Driving is like playing 10 pin Bowling with the sides up. Sure you got a strike.. but you didn't really."

 

[Del Lardo]

Micky_D

You're really talking about the worst possible situation where all the electronics fail. I wonder what the ratio of accidents prevented (by ABS/ESC etc) to accidents caused (by failure of electronics) actually is. I agree that people should be capable of driving without them watching over them but at the end of the day humans do make mistakes and even the best drivers do get it wrong, when this happens all these electronics can become lifesavers.

 

[Mickey_D]

Actually, I'm not. My wife's car has ABS on it. And the system has been acting funky lately under normal braking situations with full traction available.

So it can and does happen.

I've also had a complete electronic systems failure on a car before.

 

[Entai]

There is a very simple answer to all of this, if people were taught to drive properly in the first place none of these gadgets would be needed.

The most powerfull computing objects on the planet are between our ears, (the human brain) and they, when trained properly, can react faster and have far more control over what is going on around, than any electrical based computer can.

ABS is totally unnecessary, if you drive with the correct observation, anticipation , and concentration of what is going on around you, there will NEVER be a time when ABS is any better than cadence braking, and neither should cadence braking ever be needed if you are looking out and anticipating problems correctly so that you are in the correct gear at the correct speed for the hazard ahead.

Traction control, ESC, etc are also not needed, the human foot is analogue not digital there are other positions than on and off, if you need to vary the traction you can do it with your foot, a computer is not needed.
Again if you observe all the things going on around you correctly there will never be a situation where you need traction control, as you will already be at the correct speed in the correct gear for whatever you can and can't see ahead.


So just learn to drive properly and none of this stuff is needed, if you can't get on without it, tough, and take the bus, the journey will be just as mind numbing, as in a car with all this carp in it.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Originally posted by Entai
There is a very simple answer to all of this, if people were taught to drive properly in the first place none of these gadgets would be needed.

I have to say I fully agree. I'm especially concerned with what Sin_Chase said - he's used his 'emergency brake' 'plenty of times'. That is quite worrying - surely emergency brake is only as a last resort, and is something good observation should allow you to avoid.

I have triggered my ABS properly three times since I got an ABS equipped car when I got the Xantia. The first time was braking very harshly from 70mph when a car pulled out without warning on the A38. The second time was on a patch of ice on my drive, and the third time was when I deliberately engaged it on the Mondeo to test it was working.

Two of those times were unavoidable - the test and the ice. The first one, whilst it wasn't my fault, could have been avoided had I thought 'Hang on, rusty Fiesta, guys in baseball caps, could be a bit unpredictable here..' - something I learnt when I did my IAM.

Observation and anticpiation and driving within you limits = win.