congestion charge... That will be £20 pls!

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v0n said:
That's the way Ken likes to look at it - the CO2 per maximum number of passengers. However, the truth is, whether they run service on old Volvo doubledeckers, bendy buses or Mercedes single decker small shuttles the statistics are the same. 8 people per mile. It's not that everyone saw bendy bus and decided "I wanna ride on that one". There is still as many passengers as there were in first place, or as many as there would be in old Routemaster if they were still running.

Want to know the numbers?

Volvo B7TL Double Decker
release of co2/km total 1,406g
release of NOx/km total 12.3g
average fuel consumption 54.03 l/100km (approx 5.2 mpg)

Mercedes Citaro Artic (so called bendy bus)
release of co2/km total 1585.7
release of NOx/km total 13.61
average fuel consumption 59.82 l/100km (approx 4.7 mpg)

Honda CRV 2,2 CDTi
release of CO2/km total 177 g/km
average fuel consumption 6.69 l/100km (or 42.2 mpg)



Well actually, we'll never know as all bus figures are always calculated as empty run. And there is never average of 80 people per every km...

well those numbers now show a bit more clarity, buttttttt the 8 person per mile rule may need to be re evaluated as apparently traffic in Central london has reduced, and i dare say the people are using some form of transport.
So there would be more people on the busses, not nessecarily because its a new bus, but because they have no real choice.
And at peak times at least i dare say both busses would be full. Although like i have said i havent been to London or used the transport so dont know for a fact. But then at the same time the busses will both handle full loads etc differently, as you said the figures are calculated empty, meh me head hurts thinking about it lol
If they want rid of the congestion in London there is only 1 solutuion. Padestrians only, oh but wait, they wont make any money that way :p
 

v0n

v0n

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fini said:
My major change to the system? In the style of bus lanes, I'd create lanes for key workers and tradesmen only - the kind of people that everyone says it would be impossible for them to not go by car - electricians, plumbers and hospital, police and firemen staff. I realise that most roads don't have room for three lanes (bus, normal and my new one), but you could always merge the bus lane into my new lane on major routes into London.

fini

That's not possible, as you would need to somehow tag car registration plates as trade at DVLA (so the bus lanes cameras could tell a difference).

There are few very simple ways of improving traffic though.
1. City shoudl encourage offices to change time tables from 9 to 5 and 10 to 6. Of course there are plenty of trades that need to work in bank hours but let's not be silly, many would beneit from work in 6 to 2pm or 7 to 3pm and would have long afternoons off to stay home with kids etc. People would actually have a life and traffic both on motorways and public transport would spread across more hours.
2. We should stop encouraging trades to use full size commercial vehicles. Every sparkie, kebab man and his dog nowadays rolls around in high roof van because there is very little financial advantage for him to buy small estate or something of a size of corsa van, which would carry his two toolboxes just as well as transit high roof does. My neighbour had a combi boiler fitted, first to arrive was a plumber meister with LWB transit, then he called second plumber, which arrived with pipes on the roof of second LWB transit, then plumbers mate arrived in another LWB transit with nothing but two can blow torches and few boxes of elbows at the back of it. They needed Southern Water to close stop **** for the property so they called them and two engineers arrived both in their own high roof vans to close off the water. And then they started massive manouvers all over the road as plumbers parked on stop **** cover and they all had to let each other through. And they could do just as much with two large estates.

3. Bus lanes should be either mandatory for buses to use (as in, if there is a bus lane buses can't drift all over the road) or abandoned all together as there is always more than statistical average of 8 people with cars queueing next to empty bus lanes and thus majority is inconvenienced for the good of minority. If you want I can actually show you series of pictures of how bus drivers cleverly cheat the system to their advantage jumping through the lanes in such manner that they singlehandedly force traffic from Canary Wharf to Blackwall Approach into standstill in peak hours.

4. There should be as many parking spaces made as possible to avoid tradesmen or drop off deliveries parking on red routes, bus stops or middle areas.
 
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v0n said:
That's not possible, as you would need to somehow tag car registration plates as trade at DVLA (so the bus lanes cameras could tell a difference).
why would that be a problem - number plates are already tagged as having paid the congestion charge - why not just auto-filter out of the list of people who should be recieving fines those who are on the database of known trade vehicles - to get on the list you'd just need to apply.

fini
 
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fini said:
My major change to the system? In the style of bus lanes, I'd create lanes for key workers and tradesmen only - the kind of people that everyone says it would be impossible for them to not go by car - electricians, plumbers and hospital, police and firemen staff. I realise that most roads don't have room for three lanes (bus, normal and my new one), but you could always merge the bus lane into my new lane on major routes into London.
And how would you decide which people are allowed to drive in these lanes? Based on what criteria?
 
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GSXRMovistar said:
And how would you decide which people are allowed to drive in these lanes? Based on what criteria?
As I said, tradespeople plus hospital, police and fire staff. Tradespeople would be people like plumbers, electricians, delivery people (basically people that need there car to transport stuff and it would thus be absolutely impossible for them to use public transport) - and it would have to be a company vehicle.

fini
 
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fini said:
As I said, tradespeople plus hospital, police and fire staff. Tradespeople would be people like plumbers, electricians, delivery people (basically people that need there car to transport stuff and it would thus be absolutely impossible for them to use public transport) - and it would have to be a company vehicle.

fini
But that’s open to so much abuse, I'm a systems analyst and I don't normally deal with much hardware but on the occasion I do which is normally moved about by company logistics. What if I turn round and state that I need to drive into London as I need to move large amounts of hardware/tools about, how would you prove that's not the case?
 
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cleanbluesky said:
Its also funny how the first method of doing almost anything under Labour is to increase/introduce new/introduce stealth TAX

Because clearly all this money will go directly to improving transport for london ;)

The stupid thing is they charge through the nose for peak times in the morning - I don't think they should do that. I mean anything before 9am is ridiculously expensive. I'm so glad I don't commute using public transport.
 
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GSXRMovistar said:
But that’s open to so much abuse, I'm a systems analyst and I don't normally deal with much hardware but on the occasion I do which is normally moved about by company logistics. What if I turn round and state that I need to drive into London as I need to move large amounts of hardware/tools about, how would you prove that's not the case?
Easy, as a system's analyst your job wouldn't fall into one of the pre-defined catagory of jobs that are covered. I'm suggesting a closed list of proffessions which would be eligable.

fini
 
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I'm a student in central london and have been living their for just under a year and I have found the public transport to be superb. Underground is fantastic and the bendy buses are a godsend. Nothing like jumping on the back of a 73 on the bottom of oxford street all the way up to warren street after a night out, journey = 0p:p
 
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fini said:
Easy, as a system's analyst your job wouldn't fall into one of the pre-defined catagory of jobs that are covered. I'm suggesting a closed list of proffessions which would be eligable.

fini
Okay I'm now a hardware engineer specialising in installing large amounts of computer hardware with the occasion software/system analyst work. Very easy for me to get my job title changed and very easy for me to get around your plan, see the flaws in it?
 
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gurdas said:
I'm a student in central london and have been living their for just under a year and I have found the public transport to be superb. Underground is fantastic and the bendy buses are a godsend. Nothing like jumping on the back of a 73 on the bottom of oxford street all the way up to warren street after a night out, journey = 0p:p
If you live and work in central London then public transport is tolerable, but if you live outside of London and have to travel into it every day then public transport is absolutely useless for a lot of people and these are the poor buggers that get hit with the congestion charge daily.
 
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GSXRMovistar said:
Okay I'm now a hardware engineer specialising in installing large amounts of computer hardware with the occasion software/system analyst work. Very easy for me to get my job title changed and very easy for me to get around your plan, see the flaws in it?
Not really - because you still wouldnt qualify :p . As I said earlier - there would be a defined list of proffessions - if your job isn't on the list you can't get it. This list would 99% be people whos job includes driving to lots of places with a lot of equipment. A hardware engineer would not be on that list because chances are you wouldn't be bringing the hardware with you - it would either be on site already or the delivery part of your company would deliver it at the same time. It's not about what your title is, it's about what you do and if you fit into the pre-defined jobs. I think this list would be reasonably easy to make.

fini
 

v0n

v0n

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fini said:
why would that be a problem - number plates are already tagged as having paid the congestion charge - why not just auto-filter out of the list of people who should be recieving fines those who are on the database of known trade vehicles - to get on the list you'd just need to apply.

There are few problems.
First: There is no database of known trade vehicles. Creating one is close to impossible even if it was feasable financially (and it isn't). Currently number plates are verified against database of paid charges at the end of the day and then details of those numbers that are don't match paid tickets are requested from DVLA database. This service is not free, DVLA charges Capita for all queries but the cost is added to the fine. Imagine additional costs if Capita was to query DVLA for all "trade vehicle" that didn't pay the charge.

Second: System abuse. We all see motorway contractors parking vans on their driveways and people using company registered SUVs and pick ups "making up" minimum required business mileage on weekends. The same would happen with CC charge. Everyone would want a fleet car, every shopping spree would be done in delivery van, so on, so forth. Mind you there is system abuse already going on, many, many companies, from estate agents to utility companies register all vehicles to address of the office inside CC zone, just so they can pay discounted local resident rates in case they need to enter the zone...
 
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fini said:
Not really - because you still wouldnt qualify :p . As I said earlier - there would be a defined list of proffessions - if your job isn't on the list you can't get it. This list would 99% be people whos job includes driving to lots of places with a lot of equipment. A hardware engineer would not be on that list because chances are you wouldn't be bringing the hardware with you - it would either be on site already or the delivery part of your company would deliver it at the same time. It's not about what your title is, it's about what you do and if you fit into the pre-defined jobs. I think this list would be reasonably easy to make.

fini
I think a few of my mates would be pleased to hear next time they are on a call out to replace some hardware they will now need to use the tube to move half a racks worth of server equipment. Sorry but I can't see your plan working in the slightest. :p
 
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v0n said:
3. Bus lanes should be either mandatory for buses to use (as in, if there is a bus lane buses can't drift all over the road) or abandoned all together as there is always more than statistical average of 8 people with cars queueing next to empty bus lanes and thus majority is inconvenienced for the good of minority. If you want I can actually show you series of pictures of how bus drivers cleverly cheat the system to their advantage jumping through the lanes in such manner that they singlehandedly force traffic from Canary Wharf to Blackwall Approach into standstill in peak hours.

the only reason us bus drivers do that is because idiots park in the bus lanes, or there a half a dozen cyclists slowly ambling along, or a taxi in no particular rush.
Our timetables do not give us enough time to sit behind the above mentioned. We have to get from A to B as quickly and as safely as possible and on time. If people use bus lanes to park in or whatever, this task becomes nearly impossible.
 
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GSXRMovistar said:
I think a few of my mates would be pleased to hear next time they are on a call out to replace some hardware they will now need to use the tube to move half a racks worth of server equipment. Sorry but I can't see your plan working in the slightest. :p
I didn't say they couldn't drive - just that they wouldnt be able to use the dedicated lane.

@v0n - I'd imagine it would work in exactly the same way that you have to apply to put your vehicle on some list if you live within the CC zone at the moment.

As you said - there's abuse at the moment - I'm not saying this system wouldn't be abused at all - but that it would be no more or less abused than at the mo.

fini
 
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sneakypenguin said:
the only reason us bus drivers do that is because...or there a half a dozen cyclists slowly ambling along, or a taxi in no particular rush.

As they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Buses having to stick to a timetable should not be an excuse for causing traffic chaos that results in everone bar the bus being behind schedule.
 
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looks like the tipical goverment trick again, scare peeps into thinking its going upto £20, then when it 'only' goes upto £15 we will all feel happy as its not as bad as £20.

when in fact its still really bad.

my local council do it every year.
 
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