Poll: DAB+ is the future? Digital terrestrial radio broadcasting

[4K8KW10]

I hear that from December, 20, 2020, all new cars and home audio systems must comply with the European Union Directive and should include at least one digital signal receiving unit.
Hi DAB+, you are welcome to give us the better quality.

Is it close to CD Audio?

I mean in other countries, too, Germany, Norway? Thoughts?

https://industryeurope.com/digital-radios-in-cars-compulsory-under-eu-mandate/

 

[lucid]

There's a parallel here between DAB/DAB+ for digital radios and SD/HD for digital TV in that it's a lot to do with CODEC efficiency and legacy support.

The UK was one of the first countries in Europe to go digital for TV, and because of that, we have a system for SD based on a now fairly old and relatively inefficient MPEG-2 CODEC. The need to keep this running to support all the older TVs and STBs and PVRs that only have SD tuners is now getting in the way of the UKs ability to move to the higher efficiency CODEC used for HD as a carrier for HD and SD channels. Countries that joined the party later jumped straight in with systems based around HD compatibility from the word go.

It's a similar story with DAB radio.

DAB+ uses a higher efficiency CODEC, so it's possible to send a better quality signal, or just more signals in the same channel space that relatively few DAB channels occupy now.

I've been unconvinced by the DAB quality arguments. To me, it's never been about quality despite what the little Barry White/Theophilus P. Wilderbeast puppet claimed in the TV adverts. It's purely about quantity and revenue and selling off chunks of the bandwidth space to telecoms firms for a nice little windfall profit and a few backhanders.

We've had DAB+ as a live system for three years or so. It has been in the planning stage for a lot longer than that. The problem as I see it is a chicken and egg scenario. Many broadcasters are reluctant to drop their existing DAB support and go all out with 'DAB+ only'-based services until there are enough DAB+ radios in circulation. Manufacturers have been reluctant to accept the cost of including DAB+ in hardware when (until recently) there's so little broadcast support for it. Consumers are bloody confused about the whole lot, and peed off with DAB quality as a whole, and rightly annoyed that their hardware investments of the last 10 years won't work with DAB+, and wondering why the hell they need DAB+ anyway when their stations are on DAB or (if local) sound better on FM.

It's all a bit of a ghastly mess.

 

[Donnie Fisher]

Good post. Especially about the quality. Whilst DAB even now has the potential for high quality bit rates, and was put forward as such, the reality is that the rates are far lower and poorer quality than FM. I fully expect DAB+ to be similar.

Nice video about this sort of stuff here...

https://youtu.be/27w3quNTP84

 

[picnic]

It's not all about sound quality, remember AM anybody DAB for the Radio 5 win

Didn't I read, only the other day, that the government have dropped their plans to go fully digital radio for now, or delayed it for sometime?

 

[lucid]

@Donnie Fisher - good video. Rounds up the main points nicely and is a useful primer for anyone about to drink the Government's Koolaid for DAB.

Yes @picnic, another delay.

The move to digital TV hasn't been easy, but the fact that relatively inexpensive STBs were (and are still) available helped to keep the cost of transition down. Lots of people also found that their aerials installed for analogue still worked for digital. For those who saw disruption due to the retuning and channel shuffling, the Government funded replacement aerials.

The change to digital TV also coincided with some upheaval in recorder technology. VHS was on the wain. Analogue DVD Recorder was a bit of a damp squib. So it was really the PVR -which was helped by digital TV in that it didn't need expensive and messy analogue to digital conversion in order to receive and record - that helped usher in the transition to a new platform. That and the change to flatscreen TVs.

There hasn't been the same trajectory of positive coincidences for radio.

One of the biggest hurdles is that most people listen to radio in the car, and there are millions of analogue car radios in the UK. It's only my guess, but I suspect that the cost to the Government to fund changing all of them would be out of proportion to the end benefit.

DAB reception on the move is a bit of a problem too compared to FM, though this is improving I believe.

There are then all the static and portable FM radio receivers to consider.

I'm not against DAB/DAB+ in principle. Where it offers increased choice and improvements in quality over say AM transmissions then that has is welcome.

What I find unacceptable is the deceitful promotion of it based on quality, and the Government trying to foist the cost on to consumers so it can flog off parts of the transmission bands.

There a low-level but concerted spin campaign happening in the background where loaded questions result in answers that are the trotted out as proof of the success of DAB by its promoters. For example;
'Britain has the biggest DAB transmitter network in Europe' - yeah, but only because we were one of the first with a large scale rollout on the back of a shift to digital TV.
'More people listen to radio on a digital platform than analogue' - well duh! Radio is available on PCs, mobile phones, via Sky and Virgin and Freeview and Freesat and the Internet, and private digital networks servicing retail stores and leisure venues. Of-bloody-course more people listen on a 'digital platform', but do more people listen via a DAB receiver rather than an FM or AM tuner? That's the question.

Another favourite is X% of people surveyed think DAB sounds the same quality as FM. This is one of those 'there are lies, damned lies, then statistics' situation. Ask people who listen in noisy environments if DAB/DAB+ and FM sound the same and I can almost guarantee you a positive answer. The sample set is rigged to skew the answer, and then that answer is used as justification for all. That's an underhanded trick.

 

[jpaul]

But we're leaving on 31Dec, so only a few cars delivered in the interim need it ?

Is it still just radio 3 that has a 1/4 decent stream ~160Kb/s mp3 equivalent ? if they were delivering radio 4 & co. at, the 320Kb/s aac you can digitally stream, that would entice me,
still, utube and, basic, nowtv are only 128Kb/s so dab, is in good company.

 

[pepp77]

Dab+ is stereo, Dab is Mono isnt it?

 

[4K8KW10]

Dab+ is stereo, Dab is Mono isnt it?

Wow!

Don't forget also that FM is almost 100-year-old technology now, and that unpleasant hissing and fading, crackling, whining, buzzing, rasping or clicks and pops FM sound...

 

[lucid]

Wow!

Don't forget also that FM is almost 100-year-old technology now, and that unpleasant hissing and fading, crackling, whining, buzzing, rasping or clicks and pops FM sound...

A lot of those issues are reception-related. Get the aerial done right and they go away. The source signal can be very good.

DAB isn't immune to its own set of reception issues, but here's the difference: Get the aerial sorted and you're still left with a crappy source signal. Nothing you can do as a listener will ever compensate for the lack of bits in the source signal.

DAB could have been good. Send 256kbps and even MPEG-2 audio can sound pretty reasonable. But they never chose that path. It's quantity over quality, and the fact that the bit rates for some channels have fallen since launch so as to pack in more channels just shows what the future will be for DAB+ too.

 

[4K8KW10]

A lot of those issues are reception-related. Get the aerial done right and they go away. The source signal can be very good.

DAB isn't immune to its own set of reception issues, but here's the difference: Get the aerial sorted and you're still left with a crappy source signal. Nothing you can do as a listener will ever compensate for the lack of bits in the source signal.

DAB could have been good. Send 256kbps and even MPEG-2 audio can sound pretty reasonable. But they never chose that path. It's quantity over quality, and the fact that the bit rates for some channels have fallen since launch so as to pack in more channels just shows what the future will be for DAB+ too.

But the FM signal also comes from a digital source and in some cases lacks bits.
I have listened to FM and DAB+ in Germany and can say that the DAB+ frequency range is wider, thus produces quite noticeably richer sound there.

Germany is 2-3 years away from switching the FM signals off completely.

Not to mention Norway and Switzerland. And Italy.

 

[lucid]

But the FM signal also comes from a digital source and in some cases lacks bits.
I have listened to FM and DAB+ in Germany and can say that the DAB+ frequency range is wider, thus produces quite noticeably richer sound there.

Germany is 2-3 years away from switching the FM signals off completely.

Not to mention Norway and Switzerland. And Italy.

And all of those places are not the UK.

We in the UK could have this wide dynamic range and good stereo performance and yadda yadda yadda..... but we haven't, and that's because we have filled our transmission space with crap so that it maximises revenue.

Whether the source 'tapes'/studio output is digital or not really isn't the issue. It's what happens once that signal gets to the transmission suite. How much of it is thrown away with agressive compression. That's the quality issue with DAB, and I dare say it will be a repeat performance with DAB+.

Have you watched the video from the link that @Donnie Fisher posted?

 

[4K8KW10]

Have you watched the video from the link that @Donnie Fisher posted?

Yes. There is the complaint in the video that your signal is low bit-rate and mono but I don't understand - do you do anything to change the current situation in the UK?

I mean with DAB+ you just need higher bit-rate which is achievable like you may wish.
Just do something.

Send signals - complaints - contact the national operator, contact the radio stations.

Use the democracy if you will.

And all of those places are not the UK.

We in the UK could have this wide dynamic range and good stereo performance and yadda yadda yadda..... but we haven't, and that's because we have filled our transmission space with crap so that it maximises revenue.

Whether the source 'tapes'/studio output is digital or not really isn't the issue. It's what happens once that signal gets to the transmission suite. How much of it is thrown away with agressive compression. That's the quality issue with DAB, and I dare say it will be a repeat performance with DAB+.

 

[lucid]

Yes. There is the complaint in the video that your signal is low bit-rate and mono but I don't understand - do you do anything to change the current situation in the UK?

I mean with DAB+ you just need higher bit-rate which is achievable like you may wish.
Just do something.

Send signals - complaints - contact the national operator, contact the radio stations.

Use the democracy if you will.

Yes. There is a very vocal anti-DAB campaign. It is why the Government has continued to delay the analogue switch off.

I fear though that it's only a matter of time before there's enough bending of the truth for the Government to get its way.

 

[4K8KW10]

Yes. There is a very vocal anti-DAB campaign. It is why the Government has continued to delay the analogue switch off.

I fear though that it's only a matter of time before there's enough bending of the truth for the Government to get its way.

23 pure DAB stations on 10B (211.648 MHz) in Manchester is not OK.
They have to release new free frequencies - from 5A to 10A every one is free, plus from 13A to 13F, and offload 70% of those 23 DAB stations from 10B to other multiplexes.

 

[TALON1973]

Won’t touch dab radio with a bargepole.... Just horrendous.

 

[4K8KW10]

News:
DAB+ is the future says National German Radio CEO
https://www.worlddab.org/news?page=2

DAB launch helps BBC reach all time record global audience
https://advanced-television.com/2020/07/23/bbc-reaches-all-time-record-global-audience/

DAB+ now the dominant standard in Europe says RTVE's Javier Sánchez
https://www.worlddab.org/news?page=6

And more at https://www.worlddab.org/news

 

[Eurofighter]

For me it is about the number of stations. Much more on DAB and DAB+.

 

[lucid]

News:
DAB+ is the future says National German Radio CEO
https://www.worlddab.org/news?page=2

Isn't that stating the obvious though?

I can't see any countries in Europe making big investments in analogue radio, so of course DAB+ is the future.

DAB launch helps BBC reach all time record global audience
https://advanced-television.com/2020/07/23/bbc-reaches-all-time-record-global-audience/

This one is pure spin to help bolster the case for DAB/DAB+ in the UK.

The main growth sectors for the BBC have been through online rather than DAB/DAB+ specifically. I think it's also rather underhand to count the whole of Italy's DAB radio market as adding 1.4 million new listeners for the BBC. Yes, undoubtedly some people in Italy will now listen to the BBC via DAB, but I'll bet it's nothing like 1.4 million people.

DAB+ now the dominant standard in Europe says RTVE's Javier Sánchez
https://www.worlddab.org/news?page=6

There's a bit of bias here. RTVE is Spain's national broadcaster. Javier Sánchez is on the team at RTVE pushing for Spain to move to DAB+, so of course he's going to say that DAB+ is the dominant digital radio standard in Europe. It may well be, but that doesn't automatically imply that Spain is fully backing plans for the country to go DAB+. In fact, Spain's history with DAB isn't a happy one.

The country adopted the basic DAB standard in 1998 and rolled that out to a total of 23 transmitters by 2011. They covered just over 50% of the population. However, lack of consumer interest has meant that the country has scaled back coverage to just 20% of the population now. There's some suggestion that Spanish consumers are not choosing DAB as their radio platform. It's estimated that 1% or less of the country listens via DAB on a weekly basis.

http://digitalradioinsider.blogspot.com/2019/03/government-decision-in-spain-no-dab.html

 

[4K8KW10]

1998 was too early for DAB with very inefficient codecs. The countries that went that route this early, today don't understand a thing about DAB+ and HE-AAC v2, v3, etc.
They are biased. Finland wants to stay forever on analogue. Which is just pure incompetence.

 

[lucid]

1998 was too early for DAB with very inefficient codecs. The countries that went that route this early, today don't understand a thing about DAB+ and HE-AAC v2, v3, etc.
They are biased. Finland wants to stay forever on analogue. Which is just pure incompetence.

Have you any idea of how arrogant you sound? "The countries that went that route this early, today don't understand a thing about DAB+ and HE-AAC v2, v3, etc."

The UK has had DAB public broadcasts since 1995, so we have had DAB for a quarter of a century. I can assure you, we understand about the more efficient CODECs. That doesn't change the fact that our situation is different from that of Germany.

I am not going to accept a lecture from you when you live in a country that only launched its DAB service in 2011, and then it wasn't DAB but DAB+.

Germany hasn't had a DAB service. Your country is a Jonny-come-lately. It waited for someone else to do all the hard work, and now you have the nerve to stand on the shoulder of giants to proclaim how inferior DAB is and how we must all adopt DAB+. No, Sir. It will not stand.

Quite what Finland does with radio is their business. The Fins do a lot of things differently. Their education system starts later. Their driving instruction lasts a lot longer. But they also are a happier nation, so I don't think we have the right to criticise them. If FM meet's their needs, then so be it.

I have said before that I am not against DAB or DAB+ in principle if it offers genuine consumer benefits. What I am against is the Government peddling spin in order to get its hands on the bandwidth currently occupied by FM so it can turn a nice windfall profit. That is deceit.

If Germany's experience with DAB+ is positive then good luck to the country and I hope it continues. Please learn lessons from the UK. Our DAB+ will turn in to a rerun of DAB where quantity rather than quality is the mantra.