Poll: DAB+ is the future? Digital terrestrial radio broadcasting

[PoliticallyCorrect]

You need a bigger and more capable antenna.

how would a bigger antenna help ?

For a start, I am officially out of DAB coverage (significantly); I cannot boost the transmission, all I can do is pick the signal up with as much gain as possible which is what I have done for the mux I listen to most.

Antenna size is to do with wavelength, not signal strength.
You can use this site to calculate the optimum antenna size for the type of reception you're after:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/dipole


...bigger is not better. Bigger antenna just means better reception of longer wavelengths / lower frequency.

My current antenna is two legs paired at 32.5cm each (a single element Dipole), which is therefore tuned for the "sound digital mux" at 216.92MHz - As you can see on the spectrum, there is a rapid frequency roll-off on the multiplexes higher and lower in frequency from this one. If I want to pick up the other 3 multiplexes with the same amount of gain (without the roll-offs - a flat line on the peak of all 4 multiplexes), I would need a 4-element DAB aerial, each pair set at the correct quarter wavelength for the corresponding mux - 31.5cm x2 (BBC), 32cm x2 (digital one), 32.5cm x2 (sound digital), 33cm x2 (local). In normal DAB coverage none of this is necessary because the signal is so strong that the roll-of has no impact on the demodulator - since the lowest point is still in excess of 20dB+ C/N and therefore a normal stick aerial works just fine.

... as I said on my first post "Ignore the reception info, i'm on the edge of coverage with a single element dipole antenna."

I was sharing the data for information about DAB+ channels.

In terms of DAB vs DAB+. One thing worth noting, is I've observed better experience with DAB+ vs DAB in low coverage areas - since AAC inherently has better error correction built-in compared to MP2 audio, which is particularly useful when dealing with the particular flavour of 4-phase modulation used on DAB which requires a annoyingly high Es/No for 0%BER compared to other 4-phase digital carrier systems like DVB-T and DVB-S. Also if after both forward error correction and codec error correction, there is still not enough information to provide a sample of audio, AAC also goes silent rather than squeaks like MP2, which I prefer.

 

[4K8KW10]

I thought you need a Yagi-Uda antenna, mounted on the highest possible for you point - tall building's roof or tall pillar/pole:

 

[PoliticallyCorrect]

I thought you need a Yagi-Uda antenna, mounted on the highest possible for you point - tall building's roof or tall pillar/pole:

looks like a 4 element dipole to me! it's not any bigger than the aerial I have, these elements will be ~32cm above and below the centre. The concept is the same though, even with a yagi TV aerial - the elements on the end start small (for the shorter wavelength / higher frequencies like 700MHz) and get bigger in steps as each element is tuned in steps of UHF channel numbers with the elements gradually getting bigger towards the back (for the longer wavelength / lower frequencies like 500MHz). A multi-element dipole and a Yagi are basically the same, we are talking about the same thing.

If this is what you mean by a more capable antenna then yes this is something i've been considering but it's too much effort when internet radio works fine.

By the way on that picture not sure why that aerial is tilted 5degrees or so like that. DAB/VHF is transmitted vertically, when pointed towards the transmitter (LoS), it should be perfectly vertical - 90degrees without any offset.

 

[4K8KW10]

Sorry for the poor quality of the photo - it's so because a colleague holds it in his hand while trying to find the most optimal position for a long-distance DAB+ signal.
The particular showcase is something like a 30-watt signal being broadcast over 140 km.

With this signal reception:



140 km and 30-watt - this Yagi is really good.

 

[PoliticallyCorrect]

very good

by the way how did you work out the 12B BBC mux is transmitted at 30-watts from your local transmitter ? are you sure it's not 30kW?

my "local" transmitter is 64.27kW across all 4 DAB multiplexes (not sure on exact distribution)

 

[4K8KW10]

very good

by the way how did you work out the 12B BBC mux is transmitted at 30-watts from your local transmitter ? are you sure it's not 30kW?

my "local" transmitter is 64.27kW across all 4 DAB multiplexes (not sure on exact distribution)

It's not a BBC mux but one testing mux in the Balkan countries region


Looking good in Switzerland. Smart and good people vote for the progress

Switzerland pulls forward the FM switch-off

Thanks to positive DAB+ listener numbers, radio stations plan to phase out FM broadcasting in 2022/2023
https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en...o-phase-out-fm-broadcasting-in-2022-2023.html

71 percent of the Swiss population now receive radio programmes digitally, while the proportion using only analogue FM transmissions has fallen to just 13 percent. On 27 August 2020, the radio sector thus presented its planned phase-out of FM transmissions, which is to take place in two stages between August 2022 (SRG) and January 2023 (private stations).

At the SwissRadioDay on 27 August 2020, the digital migration working group ‘AG DigiMig’ announced that – owing to positive signs from the market and to the trend in listener numbers – the radio industry is planning to press ahead with the deactivation of FM services. In an industry agreement signed a few days earlier, it was agreed that SRG would decommission its FM transmitters in August 2022 to make it easier for commercial operators to switch over. The private radio stations are then due to deactivate their FM transmitters in January 2023. The Verband Schweizer Privatradios (VSP), the Union Romande des Radios Régionales (RRR) and the Union nicht-gewinnorientierter Lokalradios (Unikom) are requesting the approval of their members by end-November 2020. If a majority of radio broadcasters as defined by AG DigiMig agree to the proposals put forward by these associations, the FM phase-out plan will become binding for all broadcasters. SRG has already agreed to the decommissioning proposal.

OFCOM to implement the radio industry’s decommissioning plan
In the last few years, the Federal Council has created the legal framework for the changeover from analogue FM technology to DAB+. During the transitional phase and through to the decommissioning of FM, moreover, it is providing radio broadcasters with substantial financial support for promoting DAB+. During a time window that is to last for several years, the Federal Council is leaving it to the radio industry to organise the changeover from FM to DAB+ itself. OFCOM has agreed that it will accept the decommissioning dates decided by the industry as a binding obligation and cancel the FM broadcasting licences with effect from the dates agreed.

71 percent listening digitally
Since autumn 2015, GfK Switzerland has been mandated by AG DigiMig to assess the level of radio usage in Switzerland every six months. The eleventh (spring 2020) survey showed that usage of digital radio has risen by 22 percentage points since 2015: for 71 out of 100 minutes of daily listening, radio listeners use digital means to receive broadcasts (DAB+: 32%, internet and cable TV: 32%). At the same time, FM usage has dropped by 22 percentage points to 29%. By June 2020, only 13 percent of the Swiss population were using analogue FM radio only.

DAB+ now the most popular form of reception in cars too
It is not only for listeners at home or at work that DAB+ is the most popular way to receive radio programmes. In cars – the last bastion of FM radio – DAB+ has also taken over from FM as the principal means of receiving radio broadcasts. Among motorists, reception of transmissions via DAB+ or internet radio now accounts for 55 percent of total usage.

Five-million barrier breached
According to surveys conducted by GfK, sales of DAB+ devices fell slightly to just under 250,000 – probably due to the corona pandemic. Since 2000, however, a total of 5.07 million of these radios have now been sold. What matters for the future is that almost all new vehicles are now being equipped with a DAB+ device.

 

[lucid]

It's not a BBC mux but one testing mux in the Balkan countries region


Looking good in Switzerland. Smart and good people vote for the progress

Switzerland pulls forward the FM switch-off

Thanks to positive DAB+ listener numbers, radio stations plan to phase out FM broadcasting in 2022/2023
https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en...o-phase-out-fm-broadcasting-in-2022-2023.html

Another set.of figures that are likely to be bull crap and spin.

 

[4K8KW10]

Another set.of figures that are likely to be bull crap and spin.

While four and a half years ago almost a quarter of the population reported using radio exclusively via analogue reception channels, this proportion has since shrunk by almost half to 13 percent. At the same time, the proportion of people using only digital channels has doubled since autumn 2015 from 18 to 36 percent. Since autumn 2015, GfK Switzerland, on behalf of the Working Group on Digital Migration, has been investigating the state of digital radio use in Switzerland every six months with an online survey and telephone interviews: Radio use was collected for the eleventh time in spring 2020; 2,625 people aged 15 and over were interviewed.

https://www.infosat.de/radio/dank-positiver-dab-zahlen-schweiz-plant-ukw-ausstieg-20222023

 

[lucid]

https://www.infosat.de/radio/dank-positiver-dab-zahlen-schweiz-plant-ukw-ausstieg-20222023

I had a brief look at the figures in the report "Key figures on DAB+ in Switzerland", and I spotted obvious holes everywhere. For example; it appears that they're counting internet delivery of programming also available on DAB+ in their claim that 39% of the population receive DAB+. That's a lie. It would be like claiming the gate for a football match based on the people attending plus those watching at home.

 

[jpaul]

IP Yes - in the house where I use IP(mostly) and portable FM, I'd be replacing the FM receiver with IP if I needed to change,
hoping that house wifi was superior to dab reception, or the finickety placement needed with a portable fm receiver aerial.

The >50% car use would suggest the reception/signal is available, but, is that courtesy of the built-in/optmised aerial compared to a potential home use;
although, I'd like to see how much car usage has switched to podcasts and music(4G/IP, or memory stick) so the significance of that radio segment is reduced.

 

[4K8KW10]

I had a brief look at the figures in the report "Key figures on DAB+ in Switzerland", and I spotted obvious holes everywhere. For example; it appears that they're counting internet delivery of programming also available on DAB+ in their claim that 39% of the population receive DAB+. That's a lie. It would be like claiming the gate for a football match based on the people attending plus those watching at home.

In Zurich the picture is:
21 analogue FM stations + some visible from other regions;
69 digital DAB+ stations + 45 visible from Austria, Germany, etc.
http://radiomap.eu/ch/zuerich

It's clearly obvious which standard dominates.

FM is about to be switched off. As it was in Norway, in some regions of Italy, also Australia heavily relies on DAB/DAB+.

 

[lucid]

In Zurich the picture is:
21 analogue FM stations + some visible from other regions;
69 digital DAB+ stations + 45 visible from Austria, Germany, etc.
http://radiomap.eu/ch/zuerich

It's clearly obvious which standard dominates.

FM is about to be switched off. As it was in Norway, in some regions of Italy, also Australia heavily relies on DAB/DAB+.

There are only more DAB/DAB+ stations than FM because of the way digital radio uses single transmission frequencies to pack in several stations. This is called multiplexing.

There are more DAB/DAB+ stations in the UK too, but the quality here is still scheisse.

 

[4K8KW10]

There are only more DAB/DAB+ stations than FM because of the way digital radio uses single transmission frequencies to pack in several stations. This is called multiplexing.

There are more DAB/DAB+ stations in the UK too, but the quality here is still scheisse.

I know. It's because the UK broadcasters violate the minimum bitrate requirement.

 

[jpaul]

IP Yes - in the house where I use IP(mostly)

If we get the Swiss dab+ 64-70Kb/s aac https://en.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php?mux=7D&pid=19937&live=154&sec=0&lang=en, I'll be sticking with my 320Kb/s aac BBC IP feed.

 

[lucid]

I know. It's because the UK broadcasters violate the minimum bitrate requirement.

That's not really the point I was making.

Your assertion is that DAB+ is dominant because of the number of station it offers. I think the logic of that argument is flawed.

The number of stations on DAB/DAB+ is a technical by-product of the system. Whether there are a lot of stations or only a few stations is irrelevant to whether a transmission type is considered dominant. If we were simply to count station numbers as the indicator of dominance then DAB/DAB+ is easily beaten by the vast number of stations available from all over the world via internet radio.

IMO there's a big problem with all the figures that are offered to support how DAB/DAB+ is supposed to be the next big thing.

For example, they lack like-for-like listener figures. Counting internet radio and digital TV/cable/satellite as contributing towards "DAB" is fundamentally wrong, and it is deceitful. Counting the numbers of radio receivers now that DAB+ is mandated to be included in all new cars is also wrong. The list of obvious problems in the way that the pro-DAB/DAB+ camp has to engineer statistics to make a case shows the fundamental weakness of the DAB offer to the general consumer. The main benefits are commercial and financial. The treasury of each country benefits from selling off the band space vacated by FM. That's a pure and simple land grab, and it's just as dishonest as the theft of common land during the enclosure acts in Britain hundreds of years ago.

The treasury and big business has a vested interest in moving consumers to DAB/DAB+, and they will lie and cheat and manipulate information until they get what they want. The end-user will get shafted, mark my words.

 

[4K8KW10]

If we get the Swiss dab+ 64-70Kb/s aac https://en.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php?mux=7D&pid=19937&live=154&sec=0&lang=en, I'll be sticking with my 320Kb/s aac BBC IP feed.

You can't connect the IP feed to most of the high quality audio reproducing systems.
How are you going to run it - on your smartphone with its mediocre speakers?
How about your mobile internet coverage? Do you have it everywhere or in select city centres?

That's not really the point I was making.

Your assertion is that DAB+ is dominant because of the number of station it offers. I think the logic of that argument is flawed.

The number of stations on DAB/DAB+ is a technical by-product of the system. Whether there are a lot of stations or only a few stations is irrelevant to whether a transmission type is considered dominant. If we were simply to count station numbers as the indicator of dominance then DAB/DAB+ is easily beaten by the vast number of stations available from all over the world via internet radio.

IMO there's a big problem with all the figures that are offered to support how DAB/DAB+ is supposed to be the next big thing.

For example, they lack like-for-like listener figures. Counting internet radio and digital TV/cable/satellite as contributing towards "DAB" is fundamentally wrong, and it is deceitful. Counting the numbers of radio receivers now that DAB+ is mandated to be included in all new cars is also wrong. The list of obvious problems in the way that the pro-DAB/DAB+ camp has to engineer statistics to make a case shows the fundamental weakness of the DAB offer to the general consumer. The main benefits are commercial and financial. The treasury of each country benefits from selling off the band space vacated by FM. That's a pure and simple land grab, and it's just as dishonest as the theft of common land during the enclosure acts in Britain hundreds of years ago.

The treasury and big business has a vested interest in moving consumers to DAB/DAB+, and they will lie and cheat and manipulate information until they get what they want. The end-user will get shafted, mark my words.

DAB+ is not the next big thing as you look at it - like some marketing selling point.
DAB+ is a natural revolution moving away from the terrible, low quality analogue signals, to high-quality, perfect digital signal.
It gives you everything that FM couldn't.

 

[kitfit1]

It gives you everything that FM couldn't.

Except of course, it gives nothing of the sort. As @lucid has already said many times, all it gives is the powers that be more chance to make more money. It gives end consumers more tat radio stations at lower quality than FM.
I can only assume from your posts on this that you have some large fianancial interest in DAB, because anyone else can see it for what it is.

 

[4K8KW10]

Except of course, it gives nothing of the sort. As @lucid has already said many times, all it gives is the powers that be more chance to make more money. It gives end consumers more tat radio stations at lower quality than FM.
I can only assume from your posts on this that you have some large fianancial interest in DAB, because anyone else can see it for what it is.

Nope, I have listened to both DAB+ and FM and can tell you the difference is more like 10-bit picture compared to 6-bit picture in visual quality.

 

[lucid]

You can't connect the IP feed to most of the high quality audio reproducing systems.
How are you going to run it - on your smartphone with its mediocre speakers?
How about your mobile internet coverage? Do you have it everywhere or in select city centres?



DAB+ is not the next big thing as you look at it - like some marketing selling point.

Well, that's exactly how it is being marketed here.

You can't connect the IP feed to most of the high quality audio reproducing systems.

What are.you talking about? Yes you can. All you need is a streamer device and a line input on the audio system.

Are you sure you have the technical proficiency to have a conversation such as this?

How are you going to run it - on your smartphone with its mediocre speakers?

Have you ever heard of headphones.

Millions of people commute-, sit at desks-, stand on factory floors, sit in classrooms and libraries, workout or just relax at home listening to audio via their smartphone and a set of headphones. It could be Spotify, YouTube or Internet radio stations. It's happening RIGHT NOW and has been doing so for years. How have you missed this. Where have you been; living under a rock?

How about your mobile internet coverage? Do you have it everywhere or in select city centres?

Mobile data network coverage is pretty widespread throughout the UK. FM has a pretty wide reach too.

If the British example is anything to go by, then people are more likely to have problems getting DAB reception in their homes whereas FM can be picked up just fine.

It has been a similar story with DAB reception in cars on the move. FM works. DAB isn't as good. This and home reception are both effects of 'the digital cliff'.

DAB+ is a natural revolution moving away from the terrible, low quality analogue signals, to high-quality, perfect digital signal.
It gives you everything that FM couldn't.

My own experience is the opposite of that. Analogue gives great reception for the majority of the UK population. DAB doesn't yet match the reach. As for the quality, DAB has been downgraded by using ever lower bit rates in a way that analogue can't follow. In other words, DAB is noticeably inferior to FM, and the nature of FM means that there's no advantage sends such highly-compressed signals, so by its very nature, FM sounds better that what we're used to hearing from DAB.

DAB+ will happen in the UK, and at some point UK FM transmissions will be switched off.

If you're happy with DAB+ then fine, but Implore you to question the motives of those promoting it. Sometimes you have to question authority. They need to be held accountable. Go DAB+ if you have to, but secure a good deal for the listeners based on quality rather than quantity.

 

[4K8KW10]

I don't know why DAB+ quality in the UK is so bad.

Theoretically, you can have 38 muxes on the frequencies from 5A - 174.928 MHz to 13F - 239.2 MHz. If every mux has 16 channels, it means 38 by 16 equals 608 potential radio channels with satisfactory quality.
Each mux has maximum bitrate of 1,184 kbit/s, if you want 128kbit/s radios, then a mux can fit 9 stations, or 351 stations from 5A to 13F.

In London, there are currently 145 stations.