Declining attitude to law and order

[MookJong]

It's hard to avoid hearing about the spate of shootings, stabbings and moped crimes in London and of course the debate if Sadiq Khan is doing enough or not.

I stumbled over this video someone had posted on social media yesterday and it totally shocked me. It's not the person the police are trying to arrest but the actions and attitudes of the bystanders.

Seeing a female officer being attacked while young able men laugh really made me depressed.

It was a real eye opener as to the scale of the problems the police must be facing. Not only is nobody around supporting them but they are basically cheering for disorder in their own streets. Seeing violence like this on the street of my town would be shocking.

For the people saying Sadiq Khan isn't doing enough I honestly don't know what he can do in the short term, clearly there are problems far deeper than just the criminals themselves.

How do you even start to improve things when the general mindset is so warped?

I see other countries are starting national service again. I used to think it was a silly idea, now I don't know. We need a long term strategy or things will surely get worse not better.

 

[deuse]

Pity the police never had a gun.

 

[jsmoke]

A lot of things at play here, also I like the baton thumping the officer did.

This has been going on for years though.

EDIT. I've actually watched the whole video in full screen and I see 3 or 4, maybe more, undercover police tackling 1 guy. At first I thought 1 female cop was being beaten by 3 guys but after actually watching properly not the case.

So it's not as bad as you make out and the bystanders were right not to get involved as they would have been maced/batoned and were probably told to get back. Next story.

 

[GravyMonster]

You've got to wonder at the mentality of these morons laughing when the guy gets away. I wonder if they'll be laughing if a criminal who gets away from Police robs their home, or threatens their family.

 

[phil-k]

Disipline has declined in the past years, teachers, parents & police can't correct bad behaviour, so the youngers are not scared of anybody now as they know they can't touch them

 

[jsmoke]

You can't 'cure' human nature through discipline though, you can train or subdue it but the potential for wrongdoing is still there and the list of things people can do wrong is large. It's a balance between personal liberties and applying the law.

Why young black people in London feel particularly persecuted is the real question as I'm sure the crime stats will show they commit a larger proportion of crimes. It must just be a cultural thing, one culture passed onto the next.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

There is always a focus on discipline and harshness of punishments when it comes to addressing criminality, as if that is all there is to everyone's behaviour. Even when evidence points towards legal systems with a focus on punishment over reform being far less effective at reducing crime and re-offending rates.

People seem to just moan about poor discipline of today, as if there were some golden age where people could beat their children, kick a criminals head in and enjoy a safe walk down a dark alleyway...

 

[Screeeech]

Disipline has declined in the past years, teachers, parents & police can't correct bad behaviour, so the youngers are not scared of anybody now as they know they can't touch them

I think you're onto something there,

When I lived in Elephant and castle for a number of years, (a very rough, black neighbourhood, with lots of knife crime and gang problems) I saw it first hand; Single parent mothers, with one or two unruly kids - practically running riot. Countless times - I saw young, weak mothers stand by whilst their kids casually play football inside supermarkets, verbally abuse older people, generally get up to no good - on and on it goes, until they get older and it immediately turns into a far bigger problem.

They're out - behaving like this directly in front of their own parents, authorities - without any care at all, because there are never any repercussions, when I was that age - my dad would have given me a thick ear for even coming close to any of that behaviour, so I didn't do it - or even think about doing it.

 

[Shocky-FM]

Less Police on the streets, less likely to confront people in general, especially minorities, more female officers which many young man will not respect or feel intimidated by in any way shape or form.

Not surprising really.

 

[jsmoke]

Yep look at the Mods v. Rockers in the 60's, proper fist and brick fighting.

 

[Hagar]

Yet when they do give a slap, there is large criticism.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla...e-45228422&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

[mmj_uk]

I'm not sexist but what do they expect to happen when they put women up againt male criminals? has anyone seen any night clubs hiring 5ft women as bouncers? why?

Sadiq Kahn and Labour etc keep talking about declining police numbers but they won't talk about how much the 'force' has been weakened by putting women in positions that in large part require physical strength to intimidate and subdue criminals and they won't be happy until the police are 50% women so it's only going to get better for criminals. Criminals who are more likely to resist arrest have understandably lost all respect for the police when it comes to physical confrontations. If I was a criminal I'd be complaining about the lack of people with dwarfism in the police and you can bet the police would be quick to hire some due to a complete lack of common sense and anti-discrimination laws that in some cases such as the police are having damaging consequences.

 

[SMN]

Without wanting to sound too much like a keyboard warrior, whats left to respect about the 'law'? The police dont, to borrow a phrase from our grammatically challenged cousins, 'Protect and Serve'. If anything, they 'Document and File'. They dont turn up to burglaries, car thefts, etc any more and they dont do much to visibly and actively prevent crime; even worse, when people try and report crime they often CANT (i'm part of a local facebook group for the village I moved to recently, and people have been on hold to 101 for 45 mins+ regularly trying to report a crime).

Yes, the police are arguably underfunded, but I personally dont have this down solely to a devolution of society - there just isnt the fear of 'repercussions' now from the police as there used to be. For me at least, anyway, and I suspect i'm not the only one, it feels more and more like its up to me to protect myself, my car, my family and my things, and that if something ever happens I dont feel I can rely on the police turn up and help. Which is a sad indictment. And i dont live in a particularly rough area anymore.

And as for the legal system: When you see drink drivers killing people and getting 4 years, or thugs who whack someone in the street getting community service, does that really fulfill the role of maintaining law and discipline in society? I'm not advocating the guillotine or deportation to the colonies, but if crimes go unpunished then whats to prevent someone doing it again? /ramble

 

[Screeeech]

Without wanting to sound too much like a keyboard warrior, whats left to respect about the 'law'? The police dont, to borrow a phrase from our grammatically challenged cousins, 'Protect and Serve'. If anything, they 'Document and File'. They dont turn up to burglaries, car thefts, etc any more and they dont do much to visibly and actively prevent crime; even worse, when people try and report crime they often CANT (i'm part of a local facebook group for the village I moved to recently, and people have been on hold to 101 for 45 mins+ regularly trying to report a crime).

Yeah I'd agree with most of what you're saying,

And as for the legal system: When you see drink drivers killing people and getting 4 years, or thugs who whack someone in the street getting community service, does that really fulfill the role of maintaining law and discipline in society? I'm not advocating the guillotine or deportation to the colonies, but if crimes go unpunished then whats to prevent someone doing it again? /ramble

Yep - to add other examples, someone gets community service for whacking someone - yet someone who posts a silly video of their dog on youtube (the nazi pug) gets the whole system thrown at him.

It also doesn't help when headlines like this get posted; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/26/police-spark-shoplifting-boom-not-probing-thefts-200/

 

[Hades]

Every one has 'rights' nowadays. They can't be criticised. They can't be reprimanded and teachers can't discipline school kids. They grow up with no respect for authority. There are very few male teachers because we are led to believe that many men who want to work with teachers are predators. There is less discipline in the home too where many young men are brought up by single mothers. So there are few direct male role models in these people's lives.

Then they get out into the real world and the situation is similar. They learn that being aggressive and shouting gets you further than being respectful, because people are scared to challenge them.

Having fewer police, combined with much weaker police (reduction of the physical requirements to become an officer - done in the interests of inclusion and equality) means they know they have a good chance of avoiding arrest.

It's going to get a lot worse.

 

[Stretch]

Two officers armed with batons and pepper spray should easily be able to deal with that problem. They were pathetic.

I see other countries are starting national service again. I used to think it was a silly idea, now I don't know. We need a long term strategy or things will surely get worse not better.

Can you imagine firstly even getting significant numbers of intercity feral children to turn up to national service?

Then even once they're there, getting them to stay and do anything but cause trouble?

By the time these children are in their early teens it's too late.

Schools should be supported to deal with out of control children at a much earlier age 7-13. The worst offenders should be taken out of the system and placed in intensive remedial centres.

 

[TheVoice]

Yep - to add other examples, someone gets community service for whacking someone - yet someone who posts a silly video of their dog on youtube (the nazi pug) gets the whole system thrown at him.

Hardly; he got an £800 fine.

 

[Skillmister]

Hardly; he got an £800 fine.

Along with his life on hold and basically ruined while the case got dragged through the system...

 

[Screeeech]

Hardly; he got an £800 fine.

(which itself is absolutely reprehensible, and anybody involved in the prosecution of that case should be deeply ashamed of themselves)

 

[RaohNS]

Hardly; he got an £800 fine.

Which he is refusing to pay because the Judge decided what constituted context. He is looking at jail because he is refusing to pay (we will of course conveniently ignore he made an £800 payment to a children's charity when his finger slipped). He hasn't literally had the "system" thrown at him but he's had far more attention than this. Why don't things like this evoke a sense of outrage from people? Boris says something and its news for 2weeks and the blame for a terror attack.....