Yes, I'd be saying that ..... or at least querying that. But doing so with some respect.Balddog said:
Anybody that believes in something as fundamental as a supreme being surely OUGHT to be able to justify why they believe that, if challenged, surely? If a non-believer isn't allowed to question, then the inference is that you have to be born into the religion in question and to accept it automatically, from birth, without question. Otherwise, how does anybody learn?
I had a long discussion with a Muslim on another forum, a few years back. I queried his views and beliefs. I didn't insult them, but I did question them. I challenged WHY he believed what he did, and asked him to justify it. When he gave answers, I went away, absorbed his answers and read up about what he'd told me, challenged him further, and so on. I showed him and his beliefs the respect of treating them both seriously and courteously, despite my evident non-belief. I read some of the Qur'an, I read some Islamic history, and so on.
We ended up as friends. I said I'd never seem the inside of a Mosque. I was invited to visit. I was invited to his home, and to eat with his family. To be honest, that seriously surprised me.
Yes, I questioned his beliefs, but at no point (that I'm aware of) did I show him or his beliefs a lack of courtesy or respect. In fact, by taking what he said seriously and putting in the effort to follow it up and do some study, I feel I treated his views with respect and, it seems, so did he. I may not understand, I may not agree and I certainly may not share his beliefs, but despite that, I was invited to his home. Unless he was planning on waiting for me with an unsheathed knife and a maniacal grin (
) I had to assume he felt no lack of respect from my questioning and probing. If he was offended, I certainly saw no sign of it and Arabs aren't well-known for hiding offence or any slur on their honour, especially when anywhere near their families. My admittedly limited experience with Arabs (or Muslims, let alone Arab Muslims) is that they take respect, honour and family very, very seriously indeed.Ultimately, I don't share his beliefs, but I certainly respect both him and his right to his beliefs. And, ultimately, since religious belief is a matter of faith not proof, neither of us can demonstrate beyond question that the other is wrong and one is right. That simple fact is the central problem behind so much religious turmoil and war over the centuries. A little more courtesy and respect for the views of others and their right to hold them would have saved a lot of grief and bloodshed ..... not to mention removing the trigger for the current furore.
That's why I have a bit of a dilemma personally, over these flippin' cartoons. I've looked at them and while I found a couple mildly amusing, I found none either funny or insulting. I also support people's rights to express views that I find insulting, providing they do it in a legal manner. I also didn't take the cartoons as referring specifically to the Prophet, or to be caricaturing all Muslims as terrorists. Then again, I'm not Muslim, so maybe I wouldn't take it that way. And that is part of the problem. The issue seems to be not so much the cartoons themselves and what is meant or implied by them, and THAT is a matter of interpretation. I see a bloke with a beard and a turban, others see the prophet or a representation of all Muslims. We both see things in the context of our own experiences and social context.
And that is why Westerners ought to appreciate that Muslims can find those cartoons highly insulting (and that that was an entirely predictable reaction). I don't find them insulting, but I would have predicted most or many (or all) Muslims to do so. But by the same token, the rioting and embassy-burning multitudes in the Middle East ought to be able to understand that not everybody sees things the way they do. Therein lies the basic cultural divide, and it will only be narrowed by calm discussion.
But it's evident (to me) that the Muslims commenting on this board don't see things the way the embassy burners (let alone suicide bomebrs) do. I would expect that in a face to face meeting with Asim or Spawn (to name but two) I could have a meeting where I questioned the tenets of their beliefs, and I'd expect a rational and moderate response. I'd also expect that from probably all but a few hundred of the 1.5 million (-ish) Muslims in the UK, but I don't know that I'd expect it from the embassy-burners.
Ultimately, Balddog, I respect Muslim's religious views because while I don't share them, or accept them, I can't PROVE I'm right and they're wrong. If the discussion was about a matter of fact, where I could prove beyond doubt that I was right and they were wrong, and they STILL held doggedly to those views despite that proof, I couldn't respect that. But I can't say that about Islam, or Christianity, or Blue-Mud worship. It could, just conceivably, be the Blue-Mud worshippers that have the truth of it, and we're ALL in for a tough time from a supreme being dressed in Blue Mud when we pass on. But I can't prove it either way, so I have to respect that any of these groups of believers might be right and I might be wrong, and that implies respecting the rights of individuals to make up their own minds about what they believe in.
In short, because I can't demonstrate, or even be sure myself, that I'm right and they're wrong, I'd regard it as arrogance to fail to treat the beliefs of others with respect, because it implies that despite that lack of proof, I can't accept that they could be right and I could be wrong.
, her other policies might be terrible when it comes to running a country, but when it comes to the Islamic terror, youd be hard pressed to discredit her with anything other than 
. Perhaps she is right and perhaps she isnt, i looked over it quickly and really didnt find anything different to what other people have said about islam in the past.
