Gains with small bottlenecks

[slim01]

Hey guys.
Bargain hunter here, it's Black Friday in China (11.11) and I've got the itch. Want to improve gaming fps a little.

Just wondering your thoughts on this - If there is no significant CPU bottleneck, is it still worth upgrading a cpu for slightly more fps, increase to 1% low, ddr4, smoothness +opening upgrade path?
-Have you ever done/experienced this?
-Did you actually notice gains/smoothness?
-What led you to your choice?

I'm considering building a future platform AMD 3600 on an x570 (Inc 32gb 3600 ram) for about £310. So that's all the potential benefits above for about £110 after I've sold my i7, mobo +ram.


-IMO the +£100 jump to 8c (3700x or 9700kf) isn't good 'bang for your buck'.
-x570 with good vrms are pricey, but in 2024 I can probs drop in a 16c/32t Zen3 for about £150 right?

My 4770k @ 4.6ghz rarely bottlenecks my gtx1080 (oc @ 2220mhz +850mem), so...
Yes I SHOULD get a £600 2080super AND a new cpu, but I think the current pricing of gpus is outrageous.
Usually I'd spend about £350 every 2-4 years; When a new gpu almost doubles performance. Today, even a £1000 (!) 2080ti would not get me 100% uplift.


So...
-£310 on a gpu and I'll get nothing.
-£600+ rtx2080super isn't great fps Incr.
-£600 on 9900k and ill get small fps and have to upgrade mobo again in 2023.
-Wait for ages until rtx2180 / gtx1280 and I won't get benefits (even if small) I want now.

This is my problem



P. S
Playing at 1440p and 4k.
-I rarely play at 1080p. I have a massive TV and I sit quite close to it so 4k makes a world of difference to me.
(even 2 or 3 frames @4k) is worth something to me atm.


Cheers in advance

 

[EsaT]

-x570 with good vrms are pricey, but in 2024 I can probs drop in a 16c/32t Zen3 for about £150 right?


Yes I SHOULD get a £600 2080super AND a new cpu, but I think the current pricing of gpus is outrageous.

Unlike in case of previous AM4 boards you don't need to go that high in X570 line ups to get good VRMs... When doing homework and choosing this time correct maker.
Asus Prime X570-P or Gigabyte X570 Aorus Elite will do fine for high end CPUs. (their B450 board VRMs sucked donkey balls)
Asus has no VRM cooling hindering plastic trashes... But they were obviously concerned about chipset catching cold and chipset fan is positioned to suck in air preheated by graphics card.
Something what Gigabyte avoided when marketroids were apparently more concerned about screwing up design of higher boards. (or satisfied with that plastic trash)

But doubt you'll find 16 core Zen3 for that price untill five years from release as second hand.... Unless we get another bumb in core counts.
Also wouldn't expect manufacturing of Zen3s continue past 2022. (Zen4 and DDR5 platform coming in 2021, with Zen5 coming 2022)
Again 12 core Zen3 should be quite reasonably priced in late 2021 to 22, like how Zen+ Ryzens have been falling in price.


Outrageous is understatement, buttrape is more describing.
We have to remember that "RTX" cards suffer quite huge performance hit from actually using that hyped raytracing and next generation of GPUs likely makes them look slow in it:
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_rtx_2080_super_review,10.html

 

[slim01]

Yeah the one included in the £310 above is a actually that exact asus.

I watched a few vids on the vrms, hardware unboxed guy almost catching all of the msi boards on fire at 110c+ The asus is about half the Temps of ALL the budget boards (feels crazy calling £180 mobos "budget").

Compared to UK £310 quid with a 3600 and 32gb ram is cheap... Still, I have never, ever spent more than £80 on a mobo, and always had good results overclocking.
Why do x570 boards START at about £170.


Yeah I thought about the fan but I'm using a 280mm aio on gpu anyway. Don't like having heat in my case. Not after I had a HTPC meltdown.

 

[slim01]

And yeah I'm not bothered about ray tracing. That's the kind of not really noticeable stuff I turn down to get 4k/60fps.

Is dlss any good though? That sounds like my kind of thing.


I'm actually looking at prices for gpus in the sale now.
I'll post some here for you guys to look at. Just seen a 2080ti for about half uk price = £680.

 

[Gray2233]

The X570 is the more premium range, in reality we should have the B550's out by now which would be much more reasonably priced, but as far as I'm aware they've been pushed back to next year.

I had seriously been considering moving to Zen 2 myself this year, but I've decided to put it off until the 4000 series launches in part due to the availability of good motherboards. MSI's B450 MAX boards are solid, but I wouldn't personally feel comfortable with the prospect of popping in a 12 core chip down the line. I'm also not sure I want to spend £200 + on a decent X570.

 

[LuckyBenski]

Honestly given what you've said, my first question would be "Do I NEED to upgrade anything?"

That same upgrade might work out cheaper in a year (or might not depending on the i7 value second hand moving up or down). Or graphics cards might become a bit more reasonable soon and the money could go towards that. Identify if you have a performance requirement or if you just want to modernise. If you want to get off DDR3 for instance that's a reasonable desire. If you just have the upgrade itch... Well that's fine too, but don't spend money if you'd regret it.

 

[slim01]

The X570 is the more premium range, in reality we should have the B550's out by now which would be much more reasonably priced, but as far as I'm aware they've been pushed back to next year.

I had seriously been considering moving to Zen 2 myself this year, but I've decided to put it off until the 4000 series launches in part due to the availability of good motherboards. MSI's B450 MAX boards are solid, but I wouldn't personally feel comfortable with the prospect of popping in a 12 core chip down the line. I'm also not sure I want to spend £200 + on a decent X570.

Yeah this is kind of where I am. If I was in UK I wouldn't be considering the extra £100 cost compared to here.

You rekkon intel will respond with anything next year? Are they even working on like a 5nm?

 

[slim01]

And you think b550 boards will support pci express 4.0?
Might want a nvm2 one day

And their vrms will handle a 12c/16t?

 

[Gray2233]

Intel isn't in a position to properly respond to AMD right now in my opinion, and given their roadmap I don't see it happening for at least a couple of years.

The B550's should have all the main features of the X570 (gen 4 pci-e etc), they'll just be more limited in terms of overclocking, which for AMD cpu's hardly matters as CPU oc'ing isn't that big of a deal. You get a lot more out of tweaking memory.

As for the VRM's, it'll vary board to board but I suspect we'll see some good improvements over the B450 lineup and a number of the boards should be more than adequate for 12c processors.

 

[slim01]

Yeah o

Honestly given what you've said, my first question would be "Do I NEED to upgrade anything?"

That same upgrade might work out cheaper in a year (or might not depending on the i7 value second hand moving up or down). Or graphics cards might become a bit more reasonable soon and the money could go towards that. Identify if you have a performance requirement or if you just want to modernise. If you want to get off DDR3 for instance that's a reasonable desire. If you just have the upgrade itch... Well that's fine too, but don't spend money if you'd regret it.

Yeah it's a question I'm asking now... Whether or not I'm wasting my time researching all this stuff and if I'm actually gonna buy it. Hence the post .

It's actually why I'm now looking at gpus as well...in for a penny in for a pound I guess. But as you've said, gpu prices may come down shortly. Do amd/nvidia have anything revealed for q1 2020? Like intels gpus? I'm deffo not holding out for intels gpus.

"Need" is a strong word... More like want, wanting some closer to 4k/60 or 1440p/60/ultra and not wanting to pass up a bargain.
Black Friday is pretty good in China, and I'm returning to UK next November so if I go all out maybe the time is now, and maybe selling at UK prices will cut potential losses anyway.

I was just thinking for about £100 cost I'd be getting
-MAYBE slightly better fps, lows and smoothness.
-upgradable platform.
-32gb ram, and ddr4 at that.

 

[Threepwood]

B450m with 3700x job done.

 

[slim01]

Intel isn't in a position to properly respond to AMD right now in my opinion, and given their roadmap I don't see it happening for at least a couple of years.

The B550's should have all the main features of the X570 (gen 4 pci-e etc), they'll just be more limited in terms of overclocking, which for AMD cpu's hardly matters as CPU oc'ing isn't that big of a deal. You get a lot more out of tweaking memory.

As for the VRM's, it'll vary board to board but I suspect we'll see some good improvements over the B450 lineup and a number of the boards should be more than adequate for 12c processors.

Yeah I saw a few guys tweeking memory and speed doesn't even seem to matter. Looks complicated though. Have you ever done it? Is a good mobo more likely to affect this?

I couldn't believe some of the fps increases from tweeking timings. Crazy

But... Even after all the vids I've watched I still don't know what to buy... I just know not to buy expensive stuff, even if low latency advertised.

I'm just looking at standard 3200 or 3600 cl18 vengeance atm

 

[slim01]

B450m with 3700x job done.

Extra 100 quid for like 2% gains in fps? That just ain't my style cowboy .

Amd kind of screwed up the oppurtunity to sell me their expensive chips with that one . Seems like the i5 2500k of recent times. I think it'll hold up well.

 

[slim01]

Ok so these are the gpu prices.

Hope they help you recommend something... Took ages to convert from Chinese yuan!

-The (+xx%) indicates rough performance gain over a gtx1080 according to PC Gamers 11 game average test @ 1440p.

-igame is basically a Chinese ZOTAC/msi brand. They look solid and seem to mostly be the black Friday deals (China likes you to buy China goods :s)

............................................................
2080ti (+58%)
872 msi
671 igame

2080s (+36%)
581 asus
559 zotac
525 nvidia

2080 (+34%)
470 igame

1080ti (+27%)
396 asus

2070s (+23%)
402 igame

 

[Gray2233]

Yeah I saw a few guys tweeking memory and speed doesn't even seem to matter. Looks complicated though. Have you ever done it? Is a good mobo more likely to affect this?

I couldn't believe some of the fps increases from tweeking timings. Crazy

But... Even after all the vids I've watched I still don't know what to buy... I just know not to buy expensive stuff, even if low latency advertised.

I'm just looking at standard 3200 or 3600 cl18 vengeance atm

There's actually an application that can help you with that:

https://www.techpowerup.com/download/ryzen-dram-calculator/

Crucial Ballistix Sport LT (Make sure AES is in the product code) is fantastic for the price, you can get a 3200mhz set for around £70 and I've seen reports of people hitting 3600mhz with tight timings on the stuff. There's even a thread about it on this forum:

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/ballistix-sport-lt-overclocking.18861166/

As for GPU's, it's a crapshoot right now for higher end to be honest. The highest end you can get from AMD is the 5700XT, which while fantastic for the price is a tiny bit slower than a Nvidia 2070 Super (for a good deal less cash mind you). If you're gaming at 4K with a 4770K it's probably your best upgrade path though, I'd at minimum be looking at a 2080, but again I wouldn't personally want to put that sort of money down on a GPU. Regardless, I don't think the 2080S is worth it over the 2080 unless there's a very small difference in price. If you were sticking to 1440P the 2070S or AMD 5700XT would both be great.

 

[slim01]

Yeah I agree with everything... I think me and you are on the same wavelength .
Laying down the cash for a 2080 is a bit mad. But it seems like the path I should take if I want fps gains now
It's a lot of cash for +36%.

However, that said, did you see the prices above?
The 2080ti is actually the most cost effective in terms of gains over a 1080... Can't even believe I'm considering it... With a brand I hardly know.

Will be strapping a 280mm aio on it though.

 

[Gray2233]

I really don't know much about Chinese brand gpu's, although I've seen some reviews on one or two that are impressive.

It's really your call mate, I don't think anyone else can ultimately decide on whether it's worth it or not. While we share the same opinions for sure, you're the one playing the games at the end of the day. For what it's worth, while the 2080ti is expensive, it's also going to be a damn good card for a few years and is unlikely to be easily replaced.

 

[slim01]

I'm not gaming at 4k often, but would love to.

As mentioned I'm sat right next to a 55" TV. ALSO, for some reason I've lost the ability to use 60fps when set to 1440p. Nvidia locked to 30fps.

So 4k helps... A lot. And I guess the only 4k option is the 2080ti.

 

[slim01]

Yeah

I really don't know much about Chinese brand gpu's, although I've seen some reviews on one or two that are impressive.

It's really your call mate, I don't think anyone else can ultimately decide on whether it's worth it or not. While we share the same opinions for sure, you're the one playing the games at the end of the day. For what it's worth, while the 2080ti is expensive, it's also going to be a damn good card for a few years and is unlikely to be easily replaced.

True true. Looking at the gpu prices above what would choose? Bang for buck wise?

I think I might just go all out with the 2080ti... God dammit I wish amd would hurry up and release a 2080ti killer .

I'll see if I can get that crucial memory here now. Thanks for that one

 

[Gray2233]

I'd say if you're happy gaming at 1440P try and solve the technical issue that stops you from doing so on your TV.

If you can do that you surely don't need to upgrade at all, and can wait things out until next year when there's a new generation of hardware?

Funnily enough I run a dual screen setup with my gaming rig, being a monitor which I use for games that benefit a keyboard and mouse and then a nice big TV where I can sit on the couch for everything else. My rig doubles as an HTPC and I use it for movies and audio purposes also.