Soldato
Hypothetical "End of the World" Question
- Thread starter Ziggy
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I do get what you mean, but I refuse to believe that a 'reasonable' god would hold someone to account for being homosexual just because 'he doesn't like it'.
If he does hold people to account for that, he's a bit of an arse really.
Soldato
I am not Christian. Muslims totally reject the idea that God, the Creator, has begotten a son. Jesus Christ peace be upon him was a prophet and a messenger of God, not the son of God or a God (Islamic point of view) Having said that, would an Android fit that definition. If it was a unique one. It would be the one and only, with none like it. It would not beget and would be eternal. See its these kind of dilemmas (which get even more problematic when you throw in the kinds of possible "characteristics" that advanced alien life forms might have) which leave me as an Ignostic, unable to define or see any clear applicable definition of what is a god. Not that I mind being an Ignostic of course, its a standpoint which has so far served me well in life
From wiki...
An android is a robot[1] or synthetic organism[2] designed to look and act like a human.
It resembles a human, therefore, there is something 'like it'. Whereas, you cannot compare God, to human beings, or to anything else in creation. Contrary to popular belief, muslims don't believe God to be an old man with a long beard living inthe clouds, as often shown in different religions. The android based on its definition is something that is created is it not, it therefore is not eternal. We can give God many different names, and I don't agrue with ppl who use a different name for God in a different language lets say, but only One can possibly fit that above description.
The priest shouldn't be a priest claiming it's ok to be homosexual, when he's preaching from a book condemning it!
Lets just for the sake of argument agree one second that there is a God, far greater than what we can imagine, who created the universe and everything in it. If this God, had instructed human beings on how to live, would you say that we know better, or does God know better? It comes down to belief really, if you believe that God knows better then we do, you have no hesitation in accepting His laws.
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Ahhh I see, didnt realise that
I remain unconvinced of the definition I fear, I can still see how advanced alien lifeforms could have such characteristics, which would make them gods.
My apologies I am not really up on Muslim beliefs, where do Muslims stand on the issue of creation? Was there anything before we existed? If so, for how long? (ie. how long did god exist before he/she/it decided to create us/everything?). Assuming that god was always here, what was he/she/it doing before we were created? (does the Muslim belief stand with some beliefs that everything is only a few thousand years old etc?)
Although I'm not a believer, I do find the various beliefs (both as religions and of the individual) fascinating.
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Jesus Part II: this time, it's personal.
But surely it says in the Bible not to kill, yet god himself kills (in the bible at least, again my apologies regarding other faith texts as I am not familiar with them), does that not make god himself/herself/itself a hypocrite for doing exactly what the book condemns?
Soldato
Islam does not put a specific time point on things only being a few thousand years old. It does however, declare that the prophet Adam (may peace be upon him) was the first human being created, and many have tried to trace around about the time that Adam existed and maybe that is where this figure of a few thousand yrs old pops up, in Christianity or Judaism(?). There is certainly no mention of it in Islam as far as I am aware, I mean the earth may have been created billions/millions of years ago with dinosaurs roaming around, or any other creatures, there is certainly nothing that I have come across in Islam that eliminates such a possibility. Although the theory that man evolved from other species, is rejected.
The creation of the heavens and the earth in the Quran is described:
"He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth." (The Qur'an, 6:101)
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)
"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. " (The Qur'an, 21:33)
"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.." (The Qur'an, 21:32)
A few verses describing creation. How the heavens and earth were joined and then 'clove asunder' ie. expanding? So the big bang theory is something which Islam accepts. How life was created from water. The sky being a protected roof, possibly referring to the layers of the atmosphere.
Religion and Science can go hand in hand imo.
In the Bible as well as the Quran, the killing of innocent ppl is forbidden, ie by human beings. It is indeed a huge sin. Nothing is hidden from God:
In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur'an,- and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing,- We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record. (The Qur'an, 10:61)
Everything will have to be accounted for on a day which God has promised. God will either reward or punish those whom He decides, according to His own eternal wisdom. Each person has been raised differently, with a different way of life, with different problems, some far better off then others. It is only God who can judge each person accordingly. That is my understanding of Islam, which is why I choose to be muslim.
Excellent, many thanks. Gives me a bit more of an insight into the Muslim beliefs.
In the Bible as well as the Quran, the killing of innocent ppl is forbidden, ie by human beings. It is indeed a huge sin. Nothing is hidden from God:
In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur'an,- and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing,- We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record. (The Qur'an, 10:61)
Everything will have to be accounted for on a day which God has promised. God will either reward or punish those whom He decides, according to His own eternal wisdom. Each person has been raised differently, with a different way of life, with different problems, some far better off then others. It is only God who can judge each person accordingly. That is my understanding of Islam, which is why I choose to be muslim.
Ahh a kind of do as I say, not as I do type of thing
Does it not seem a tad odd though that a god which says we should forgive, then punishes rather than forgives? Its a pity that with such specifics given in so many aspects, god couldnt have been a touch more specific about exactly when this day of accounting would occur, even a century rather than an exact date would have been useful !
Soldato
Tombstone, definately read the Quran if you get a chance. Not just one verse here and there either, taken out of context, read it all and you will probably know more about Islam than 80% of muslims these days!
If you, or anyone else for that matter wants an english translation of the Quran to read, I am more then happy to send one out to you free of charge, just email me. Positive trust feedback would be gladly accepted though
Not just one verse here and there either, taken out of context, read it all and you will probably know more about Islam than 80% of muslims these days! If you, or anyone else for that matter wants an english translation of the Quran to read, I am more then happy to send one out to you free of charge, just email me. Positive trust feedback would be gladly accepted though
Soldato
So in the end, by your beliefs I should be punished?
Presumably we would be required to assume he is a god / son of god. All that assuming he was a man achieves is to annoy some Christians. That aside, to justify my response I've written a brief historical passage on the birth of Christianity.
Christianity today is a very far stretch from what it was in the past. It arose as a counter to the Roman society, taking as its values that which society rejected. So instead of fascination with physical strength and fitness, and with the standard clannish values, we get the ascetics living individually in similar areas, starving themselves and so forth. Other aspects such as rejecting material possessions, a cynic would say because many of them didn't have any to begin with, gives a largish number of powerless people acting to derail society. Rejecting the religious beliefs of the day won't have made this any better for them. Hence being thrown to the lions and so forth.
Next there's the point that a man who is also a god was not quite as unusual 2000 years back as it is now. The leaders of Rome were frequently declared divine, the myths and legends told of historical Greece are filled with the divine or semi divine offspring of gods. Jesus as the son of the one true god is not a great leap from this starting point, monotheism already having been established as a valid concept by the Jews.
The critical difference for Christianity over the other cults of the time was the conversion of emperor Constantine. It is written that he saw a vision of a burning crucifix before a battle and converted on the spot. That he had many other visions is somewhat glossed over, and I fear I can't remember the political advantages to this move. Christians were numerous by this point, a few holding positions of authority, but nothing like an overwhelming force. So for the sake of argument lets say he had such a vision and his conversion was genuine and independent of politics.
As the leader of the Roman empire is now Christian there is considerable motivation for the rest of them to be so. As the empire is extensive the values tend to spread, and then by the death of the emperor the religion was sufficiently established to persist by itself, surviving the fall of Rome.
So, regarding the OP. If the man Jesus reappeared, and survived the prosecution by the Church, he would presumably want to know why the Christian values his followers believed in so passionately have been extensively modified with time. Christians are just as interested in acquiring homes and wealth as anyone else, divorce and sex before marriage are both commonplace. Purification of the body through physical suffering is entirely out of fashion and we are cheerfully idolising attractive people again. As such the best modern day Christians could possibly hope for is a collosal bollocking for failing to follow whichever ones of his teachings looked a bit inconvenient.
The bible cannot be taken as the literal word of God, partially because the first and second testaments are often completely contradictory and partially because a lot of it can be argued are morality tales regardless. That's alright, there are other people with more coherent religious texts who take this view. However it is fairly simple to establish a list of values or characteristics which a good Christian should hold dear today. With effort we can assemble a corresponding list from closer to the start. First off we find that the lists differ significantly, and then we find that today's Christians pick and choose the more convenient/appealing values from the modern list anyway.
To have a religion which started on distinctly dodgy moral ground (trying to thrown down society being a bad thing for a social animal), then extensively change it to be more convenient over time, then just ignore bits on a whim, and then to have the arrogance to argue that your faith is superior to the alternatives is borderline comical. Simeon Stylites is a convincing Christian role model, and I have considerable respect for him. For todays Christians however, I have none.
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Caporegime
Gideon Lorr said:
