IndyCar to go to hybrid power from 2022

[JRS]

Link.

IndyCar is calling this a "single-source hybrid system," which should mean that one supplier will provide the multi-phase motor, inverter, and electric storage (which will come from brake regen) in order to ensure parity across engine manufacturers.

So, a spec electric unit (consisting of motor, inverter and storage) in order to ensure parity and (presumably) keep costs down a bit. Perhaps the way F1 should have gone when the 1.6 turbo + hybrid formula came along - manufacturers, build whatever 1.6L engine you like and here's your FIA-provided hybrid unit to bolt to it. After all, you might as well standardise it if you're going to put hard limits on the amount of energy to be recovered and how much you can deploy.

Recent history suggests that IndyCar only make changes like this when they're damned sure it's not going to mess with the 'racing' aspect of the show. Fingers crossed that they manage the same trick this time.

 

[PooKer]

BTCC have gone with Cosworth Electronics. Can't see them throwing a tender towards Indy car..... But they're also to change in 2022 also.

 

[MissChief]

Link.



So, a spec electric unit (consisting of motor, inverter and storage) in order to ensure parity and (presumably) keep costs down a bit. Perhaps the way F1 should have gone when the 1.6 turbo + hybrid formula came along - manufacturers, build whatever 1.6L engine you like and here's your FIA-provided hybrid unit to bolt to it. After all, you might as well standardise it if you're going to put hard limits on the amount of energy to be recovered and how much you can deploy.

Recent history suggests that IndyCar only make changes like this when they're damned sure it's not going to mess with the 'racing' aspect of the show. Fingers crossed that they manage the same trick this time.

F1 went the route it did to improve efficiency and its worked. Mercedes are regularly hitting above 50% thermal efficiency (that is extracting 50% or more of the potential energy in the fuel), a figure that would have been seen as pie in the sky dreamland in the normally aspirated engine days. Yes its turned out to be very expensive and has likely turned other manufacturers off joining, but in terms of what the FIA wanted, its been a great success.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Link.



So, a spec electric unit (consisting of motor, inverter and storage) in order to ensure parity and (presumably) keep costs down a bit. Perhaps the way F1 should have gone when the 1.6 turbo + hybrid formula came along - manufacturers, build whatever 1.6L engine you like and here's your FIA-provided hybrid unit to bolt to it. After all, you might as well standardise it if you're going to put hard limits on the amount of energy to be recovered and how much you can deploy.

Recent history suggests that IndyCar only make changes like this when they're damned sure it's not going to mess with the 'racing' aspect of the show. Fingers crossed that they manage the same trick this time.

Two major things, Indy is barely going hybrid, it's closer to what F1 was before 2014, normal engine + kers. Regen from brakes, an mgu-k and a battery. It's not doing regen from the turbo at all which is where F1 gets most of it's electrical power. Second F1 has zero hard limits on how much power can be harvested or deployed, it only has limits on how much of that power can go to and from the battery every lap. So you can generated 5MJ, deploy 4.5MJ and only store 0.5MJ for 8 laps, then generate the same 5MJ and empty the battery for 9MJ of mgu-k power one lap if you want (they may in fact simply run out of time to deploy that amount, at least on a shorter track). Which is why the different engines have different efficiency levels. If they had either hard limits, or standardised turbo/mgu-h, then all the engines would have hit pretty similar power amounts years ago with tiny gains from ICE gains, but which would be limited by the boost available from a standardised turbo.

Indycar is a spec series, it makes sense it's standardised, for F1 it makes almost no sense. The only thing I think F1 should do is add a hard limit in power that can be automatically used by engine mapping, and make the rest controlled directly by the driver so it gets deployed defensively/offensively and mistakenly, too much boost out of a corner or in damp conditions and you spin.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

I may have to watch a few Indy Car races when they roll this out. I’m ashamed to say I’ve never really given it a chance and seen it as an F1 knock off on terrible tracks.

 

[MissChief]

I may have to watch a few Indy Car races when they roll this out. I’m ashamed to say I’ve never really given it a chance and seen it as an F1 knock off on terrible tracks.

The cars are far more restrictive so usually the racing is better. It's on Sky Sports F1 now too.

 

[Alibaba99]

F1 went the route it did to improve efficiency and its worked. Mercedes are regularly hitting above 50% thermal efficiency (that is extracting 50% or more of the potential energy in the fuel), a figure that would have been seen as pie in the sky dreamland in the normally aspirated engine days. Yes its turned out to be very expensive and has likely turned other manufacturers off joining, but in terms of what the FIA wanted, its been a great success.

When the hybrid specs were first announced the fuel flow limit was set with the expectation that the ICE would be making around 600bhp (this did have an assumption that there would be an efficiency increase over the old v8s) and with the 160bhp from the MGU-K the power units would have similar overall power to the previous engines. When the engines appeared Mercedes were already making over 700bhp from the ICE and that figure is now close to 900 with the advances in efficiency in the last few years.

Two major things, Indy is barely going hybrid, it's closer to what F1 was before 2014, normal engine + kers. Regen from brakes, an mgu-k and a battery. It's not doing regen from the turbo at all which is where F1 gets most of it's electrical power. Second F1 has zero hard limits on how much power can be harvested or deployed, it only has limits on how much of that power can go to and from the battery every lap. So you can generated 5MJ, deploy 4.5MJ and only store 0.5MJ for 8 laps, then generate the same 5MJ and empty the battery for 9MJ of mgu-k power one lap if you want (they may in fact simply run out of time to deploy that amount, at least on a shorter track). Which is why the different engines have different efficiency levels. If they had either hard limits, or standardised turbo/mgu-h, then all the engines would have hit pretty similar power amounts years ago with tiny gains from ICE gains, but which would be limited by the boost available from a standardised turbo.

Indycar is a spec series, it makes sense it's standardised, for F1 it makes almost no sense. The only thing I think F1 should do is add a hard limit in power that can be automatically used by engine mapping, and make the rest controlled directly by the driver so it gets deployed defensively/offensively and mistakenly, too much boost out of a corner or in damp conditions and you spin.

F1 does have a limit on how much power can be deployed from the battery during a lap, it's 4MJ.

 

[drunkenmaster]

TSecond F1 has zero hard limits on how much power can be harvested or deployed, it only has limits on how much of that power can go to and from the battery every lap.

Really, there is a limit to what can be deployed from the battery...you can all see from the calculation that I pegged the max output of the battery at MJ for a single lap.

After all, you might as well standardise it if you're going to put hard limits on the amount of energy to be recovered and how much you can deploy.

In response to this from the OP.

F1 cars do not need to send power to the battery for it to be usable, in fact due to losses from storing and retrieving the energy and temperature increase from charging the battery, it's more efficient to send power directly between the mgu-k/h.

 

[cuke2u]

The mercedes engine only achieved the thermal efficiency of above 50% on a dyno not on a track..

 

[JBeck]

So, a spec electric unit (consisting of motor, inverter and storage) in order to ensure parity and (presumably) keep costs down a bit. Perhaps the way F1 should have gone when the 1.6 turbo + hybrid formula came along

Spec and F1 don't go together, mention that to the purist's and they'll scream blue murder. Never going to happen.

 

[The_Abyss]

Yet that's exactly what much of the 2021 regs is pushing. And yes, (some of) the teams are screaming blue murder.

 

[JBeck]

Yet that's exactly what much of the 2021 regs is pushing. And yes, (some of) the teams are screaming blue murder.

True, but it's far far short of what IndyCar is 'spec' wise. Indycar is a spec series something which F1 will never be.