islam and violence...again

[Dingo]

Its not so much about freewill, its about choice isnt it? Islam basically says that this is the way it is... this is what will happen, look around you and see the signs for yourself, a time will come when you will to account for your actions etc. It is pretty clear cut in what it says but ultimately the person is left with his/her own choice as to what they want to do about it. Its a belief, so no matter what, if someone doesnt believe it, they cant be 'forced' too can they?

But there was no choice for many thousands who either had to commit to Islam or die....what sort of "choice" is that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there not something in Mohammed's scriptures that says be wary of the convert to Islam, for he is still not a "true" believer.

Do the captives who are paraded on Al-Jazeera tv truly believe in the words they are saying or are they made to say them under threat of death\decapitation. Do you truly believe that these people have "converted" and have "free will\choice" in what they are saying?.

Were the slaughter and conversions of Hindus a myth?, or are the muslims in those countries reaping the backlash even today from a centuries old vendetta, against a conqueror who had little pity for non-converts.



"After the sack of the temples in Orissa, Firoz Shah Tughlaq attacked an island on the sea-coast where "nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations". The swordsmen of Islam turned "the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers". "

"In 1195 AD the Mher tribe of Ajmer rose in revolt, and the Chaulukyas of Gujarat came to their assistance. Aibak had to invite reinforcements from Ghazni before he could meet the challenge. In 1196 AD he advanced against Anahilwar Patan, the capital of Gujarat. Nizami writes that after Raja Karan was defeated and forced to flee, "fifty thousand infidels were dispatched to hell by the sword" and "more than twenty thousand slaves, and cattle beyond all calculation fell into the hands of the victors"."

"After Muhammad died, many people who had converted to Islam by force imagined freedom. They thought that Islamic leadership would be distracted with trying to establish a new authority, so they began to abandon Islam. However, Abu Bakr [UBAW ker"), one of Muhammad's closest friends, was quickly recognized as successor. He spent the first three months of his authority killing those who had tried to leave Islam—eighty thousand people. This is how Abu Bakr followed the example of Muhammad"


....and is the "choice" nowadays any different?......submit to our will on what you will or won't publish or we'll cut off your heads!!


Yes, even choice has a new identity......Political Islam is set to usurp Religious Islam as the "choice" of muslims everywhere.....so while muslims vent their angst against the West and the Great Satan, for perceived injustices, their very own leaders are set on a Caliphate to ensure their own dominance and the submission of the "ordinary" muslim to their will.....given the "choice" I am sure many muslims would like to live in peace in their own economically affluent societies.....but the truth remains that the power is held by the few and they do not wish this to change!!.

 

[Toekiller]

a lot of the problem is these people have nothing. Little food or shelter compared to the west. What else is there to do but work and be brought up in the way of the people around you.

Now another eleven died after attacking the Italian embassy in Lybia as it was the only western embassy.

As much as I'd like them permently removed from the face of the earth, how many of us would be out there doing the same if brought up in the same circumstances?

This for me is the root of the problem. We need to help stop that cycle somehow.

 

[Mik3]

That idiot has learned nothing from Mohammad - He would get a better response if he offered virgins

 

[233]

bloody muppets the lot of them these protesters,

give the police bigger sticks i say

 

[cleanbluesky]

e35adz - you have made a good contribution to this thread but I am curious as to why you can be so confident as to why those of us who have grown up as Christians and gradually rejected it would accept Islam when the two are so similar.

I am not a non-religious person but my path has been very different - i don't follow a single book, a follow many of them which were written for various reasons. I have come to the conclusions and beliefs I have because I have read up on history and been shown how things work without the need for the rhetoric and behavioural control that many religions employ.

Were you taught Islam at an early age? Have you ever looked into the birth of Islam and what was around before it? Have you ever seen the advancement and skills of those before Judaism, and wondered why it seems that knowledge was lost when the Judaism came along? Ever wondered what other knowledge has been lost by the "my religion is perfect, nothing else can be allowed" attitude?

My question is, apart from the vague nothion that many Muslims seem to have been told that Islam is perfect, what has it got to offer anyone who is already a Christian given that the two religions are so similar... if you choose to answer this I prefer you wouldn't quote scripture, just explain what it means to you...

 

[Mik3]

as for its some cartoon fact: again i aplogise but as a muslim you should be angry.

Did you come to that conculsion yourself, or was you told to think that?

 

[e36Adz]

But there was no choice for many thousands who either had to commit to Islam or die....what sort of "choice" is that.

I agree with you. Thats one of the great things about this country, it gives me freedom to practice my religion, without any fear. Others who choose not too do so, have that choice their aswel. But people in other places around the world who arent so fortunate, have to do follow a certain 'lifestyle' or face consequences, I think that has more to do with the culture and poverty in those regions though, because if I be honest i cant think of one country out there which i can say.. thats a proper muslim country.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there not something in Mohammed's scriptures that says be wary of the convert to Islam, for he is still not a "true" believer.

Thats not true mate, if anything the best muslims out there are the ones who convert because for them to do so they have to actual study Islam, so they accept it for what it is rather then just listening to some imam and doing as they are told.

As far as the rest of your points go, I will agree that Islam has been used as an excuse my many to commit atrocities, the same can be said about other religions. Islam has spread during times when the muslims fought in wars but please also consider how much Islam has grown where there is no sword present. Afew points to consider:

1- Opinion of historian De Lacy O’Leary

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross roads” (Page 8):

“History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.”

2- Fourteen million Arabs are Coptic Christians

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled, but overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword, there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

3- Indonesia and Malaysia

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

4- East Coast of Africa

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, “Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?”

5- An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235 percent, while Christianity had increased only by a mere 47 percent. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?

So yes although Islam has been involved in wars, butits still continuing grow and always has been without any sword in sight. Infact there is more stuff available on the internet, to see on tv, to read in the papers AGAINST Islam then then is FOR it, because only the negatives get highlighted and stay in peopels mind, but it doesnt stop islam from spreading! I still hold strongly to my belief that its a religion of peace, because this is the only Islam iv ever known and iv read the Quran and the hadith etc.

Sorry if I didnt address all your points im in a huge rush and im late for work!

 

[Mujja]

We know the majority of muslims aren't the ones holding the knives, but an awful lot dont seem to blink at the bloodshed.

A lot of people in Iraq and Afghanistan could say the same about us in the west.

When you consider the number of protests held around the world number of violent incidents is low. And it's not the protestors doing the killing, it's the security forces. Why is it acceptable for the US soldiers in Afghanistan to shoot and kill the protesters when that wouldn't be allowed in the US or the UK.

And how can we say to these people violence isn't the answer when we use it ourselves everyday to make changes in their countires.

 

[Mujja]

a lot of the problem is these people have nothing. Little food or shelter compared to the west

Because they don't have big houses with cable tv and fast cars people seem to think they are unhappy and fed up with their lives and jump at any oppurtunity to cause a riot.

I don't see why members here are getting so upset at the demonstrations around the world. They have just as much right to say what they think about the cartoons as we do to publish them.

And as for only Muslims being barbaric and only understanding violence as a way to protest, try telling that to a friend of mine who was beaten up in the gym by a white guy who was mad at the reaction to the cartoons.

 

[ElRazur]

As i speak i am at the british library to sort my essays out, i will be back on moday night to deal with one or few issues raised in here. Especially the dude that claim i wasnt "a proper muslim".

 

[Sleepy]

Hamas should do what the Palestinian people elected them to do, wipe Israel off the map.

cough***religion of peace***cough

 

[Mujja]

What does quoting what I say have to do with Islam?

And regardeless of what religion the Palestinians are, if security for the US/UK means blowing up the enemy who are we to argue with the Palestinians.

Looks like you've been taking too much of that cough medicine.

 

[Nitefly]

And regardeless of what religion the Palestinians are, if blowing the enemy up makes the US/UK feel more secure then who are we to argue with the Palestinians.

... o_O

Nothing more I can add!

 

[asim]

e35adz - you have made a good contribution to this thread but I am curious as to why you can be so confident as to why those of us who have grown up as Christians and gradually rejected it would accept Islam when the two are so similar.

I am not a non-religious person but my path has been very different - i don't follow a single book, a follow many of them which were written for various reasons. I have come to the conclusions and beliefs I have because I have read up on history and been shown how things work without the need for the rhetoric and behavioural control that many religions employ.

Were you taught Islam at an early age? Have you ever looked into the birth of Islam and what was around before it? Have you ever seen the advancement and skills of those before Judaism, and wondered why it seems that knowledge was lost when the Judaism came along? Ever wondered what other knowledge has been lost by the "my religion is perfect, nothing else can be allowed" attitude?

My question is, apart from the vague nothion that many Muslims seem to have been told that Islam is perfect, what has it got to offer anyone who is already a Christian given that the two religions are so similar... if you choose to answer this I prefer you wouldn't quote scripture, just explain what it means to you...

I actually like your statment here cleanbluesky.

At a younger age I accepted Islam for what it was but as I got a little bit older I questioned it. People say, "If your not muslim your going to hell". But I could not accept this. I will not accept that. Having read about what came before Islam I realised you could consider Judaism, Christianity and Islam like chapters of some bigger book.

Those who follow Christianity are still right in doing so.

And then I still questioned it. What if a person lived in a place where they had no idea of religion. Where they had not even been exposed to Christianity or Islam. Would God really be so cruel as to send them to hell. For me the answer is no.

I think religion was suppose to bring people together and help them appreciate life and what God gave them. (Although now it does cause a lot of conflict). If a person does not follow a religion but still can appreciate life and his fellow man then I think there is a place for him in heaven too.

 

[e36Adz]

e35adz - you have made a good contribution to this thread but I am curious as to why you can be so confident as to why those of us who have grown up as Christians and gradually rejected it would accept Islam when the two are so similar.

I am not a non-religious person but my path has been very different - i don't follow a single book, a follow many of them which were written for various reasons. I have come to the conclusions and beliefs I have because I have read up on history and been shown how things work without the need for the rhetoric and behavioural control that many religions employ.

Were you taught Islam at an early age? Have you ever looked into the birth of Islam and what was around before it? Have you ever seen the advancement and skills of those before Judaism, and wondered why it seems that knowledge was lost when the Judaism came along? Ever wondered what other knowledge has been lost by the "my religion is perfect, nothing else can be allowed" attitude?

My question is, apart from the vague nothion that many Muslims seem to have been told that Islam is perfect, what has it got to offer anyone who is already a Christian given that the two religions are so similar... if you choose to answer this I prefer you wouldn't quote scripture, just explain what it means to you...

I'l try to address some of your points here.

Firstly your last question about what does Islam have to offer to someone who is already christian. You are correct in saying the 2 religions are very similar, but its the differences that cannot be ignored. First of all il say that I believe without doubt that Jesus PBUH was a prophet of God, I believe without doubt in his miraculous birth, I believe without doubt that he PBUH healed the sick and I believe without doubt that he PBUH was the messiah who will return, as one of the signs of the last day. Now that probably makes me more christian then most christians! This isnt something new, its a common belief shared by all muslims, that may suprise many christians out there.

If there is a practising christian, and he were to accpet Islam, I dont think his lifestyle would change all that much. He probably would be similar to a practising muslim in many ways already, but its the concept of trinity that he rejects, and the belief that jesus PBUH was the son of God. So if you were to ask me what Islam has to offer christians, id say its the truth about Jesus PBUH (imo), and considering how many people in the world today are worshipping Jesus PBUH as God, id say thats a pretty big issue.

Im not saying that every christian out there is wrong, there are some sects who believe that Jesus was a prophet and there is only One God, unitarians? I think there are afew other sects with slight differences aswel, as there are with muslims, it just seems to be human nature to change things as time goes on and cause divisions. I do believe that before Islam came, anyone who followed the prophet Jesus PBUH or the prophet Moses PBUH or any prophet, I believe they were on the right path, the message has always been the same.

If you want to know from a christian ministers point of view, as to what Islam has to offer, please take the time (40mins approx) to see this video, well worth watching if you are a christian, by the way are you christian youself? Anyway heres the video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1489047104871776788&q=yusuf+estes

 

[Mik3]

If you want to know from a christian ministers point of view, as to what Islam has to offer, please take the time (40mins approx) to see this video, well worth watching if you are a christian, by the way are you christian youself? Anyway heres the video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1489047104871776788&q=yusuf+estes

I must confess that video is quite informative and sends a good message of Islam.

 

[Yas786]

As i speak i am at the british library to sort my essays out, i will be back on moday night to deal with one or few issues raised in here. Especially the dude that claim i wasnt "a proper muslim".

Well you did make the statement that you are no longer a muslim and where you got that conclusion from his statement that your no longer "a proper muslim" is yet again beyond me...as far as im concerned, he said 'your not a very learned muslim' which to me has nothing to do with being a proper muslim...theres a big difference between the two tbh. Learned meaning your not too clued up on islam and just spout off rubbish and proper meaning you dont practise any of the islamic duties...big difference there dude....

/pedantic mode off

 

[Yas786]

Mike Tyson im not sure ever converted properly to Islam, Muhammed Ali did join the nation of islam at first but in his later life like Malcom X entered into the true Islam after the visited Mecca. Cat Stevens converted yep, but Neil Armstrong lol? That was just a wild internet rumour I think :/

Yup Tyson was never a proper muslim, much like that wacko Micheal Jackson who was reportedly recruited by the nation of islam lol.

Ali from what i have read and understood has distanced himself from the nation of islam a long time ago, hes taken up the spirituality side of islam ie sufism.

Cat Stevens did indeed convert and like many other born again christians, he just discovered islam and learned about it then converted as he felt it was the right decision...good on him i say. Cant see why people have a problem with that, instead of christanity he discovered islam so in a way hes become a born again muslim...much like a lot of muslims that i know that are now re-discovering islam....i happen to be one of them myself

Armstrong??, like Adz just said its a rumour even other prominent muslims have disparaged that report that hes become a muslim...funny how people believe everything they see or hear on the media lol

 

[Yas786]

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6485080&postcount=3cough***religion of peace***cough

Here you go....cough cough...***free speech***...cough cough

Hes perfectly entitled to voice his opinion, whether or not it causes offence is another...

 

[Sleepy]

Here you go....cough cough...***free speech***...cough cough

Hes perfectly entitled to voice his opinion, whether or not it causes offence is another...

Quite, unlike a certain group I don't throw my teddy out of the pram when others say things I find upsetting.[/smug]