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Knees and squats

Discussion in 'Sports Arena' started by stig, 9 Jul 2006.

  1. stig

    Gangster

    Joined: 30 Aug 2005

    Posts: 396

    Location: The M of K

    everytime i squat with weights in either arm my knees click or grind , does this happen to everyone else? this isnt medical just want to know if its normal! :)
     
  2. NitrogenY3K

    Mobster

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 2,710

    Location: South Wales

    I personally dont get it, but i suppose you can go to a sports therapist and ask him about it, but if it's not hurting i dont hink its that much to worry about.
    And why are you squatting with dumbells, why not use a barbell?
     
  3. Mulder

    Mobster

    Joined: 10 Oct 2004

    Posts: 3,886

    Location: Bucks

    Yup, I get this too. I also get it in my back when I do sit ups. I spoke to a personal trainer I know (not mine though) and they said it was totally normal and nothing to worry about.
     
  4. Klytus

    Hitman

    Joined: 16 Jan 2006

    Posts: 828

    Location: Yorkshire

    Clicking is quite common and nothing to worry about unless you get pain/locking/giving-way with it. :)
    The grinding is possibly due to patello-femoral (kneecap) joint dysfunction/maltracking or chondromalacia patella (which IS medical). :(
    As soon as you bend your knee(s) you are loading the patello-femoral joint, add weight to that and you put more stress on the joint.
    If you continue to squat make sure you use good technique i.e. feet slightly turned out and your kneecap going in the direction of your middle toe when bending. If you are concerned about it see your gp. ;)
     
  5. stig

    Gangster

    Joined: 30 Aug 2005

    Posts: 396

    Location: The M of K

    cheers dude just wanted to make sure i wouldnt end up in a wheel chair for the rest of my life :p i squat with dumbells because i dont have a barbell :p
     
  6. Fop

    Gangster

    Joined: 5 Sep 2005

    Posts: 345

    TBH squating with correct form (and non-exessive weight) would likely help (rather than hinder) any possible mild underlying issues.
     
  7. Klytus

    Hitman

    Joined: 16 Jan 2006

    Posts: 828

    Location: Yorkshire

    IF the cause is patellofemoral joint dysfunction/maltracking AND there is a biomechanical fault then the biomechanical fault(s) need adressing. Squatting with good form will NOT help rectus femoris or illiotibial band tightness. Nor would it help tight hamstrings or calves (both a cause of chondromalacia patella), OR overpronating feet, valgus deformity at the heel or other tight tissues at the knee.
     
  8. dunker

    Mobster

    Joined: 16 Sep 2003

    Posts: 4,165

    Location: house

    when i first started doing weightless squats i used to get quite alot of clicking but after a few weeks it almost went away and keeping the feet angled out slighlty reduces it.
     
  9. Klytus

    Hitman

    Joined: 16 Jan 2006

    Posts: 828

    Location: Yorkshire

    With you it could have been to due to weak vastus medialis obliquus or weak lateral rotation portion of gluteus medius. Both of which would benefit from 'good technique' squatting.
    The important thing is to note that patellofemoral maltracking CAN be caused by a number of biomechanical factors and squatting is NOT the best approach for ALL of them.
     
  10. Goatboy

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 22 Oct 2003

    Posts: 4,023

    Location: a crappy part of London

    Do you really think a beginner asking a question about squats is going to understand any of what you just wrote in those two posts?
     
  11. Klytus

    Hitman

    Joined: 16 Jan 2006

    Posts: 828

    Location: Yorkshire

    Fair comment.
    The OP seemed content with my initial response. I just didn't want others reading the thread to think squatting is the answer to ALL clicking/grinding of the knees.
    In future I will tone down the jargon. ;)
     
  12. Sparky191

    Hitman

    Joined: 6 Dec 2005

    Posts: 790

    delbuenno - how do you know all this?
     
  13. reflex

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 8 Jan 2005

    Posts: 1,609

    Location: Bideford/swansea uni

    lol i looked at it and went 'wtf!'
     
  14. Fop

    Gangster

    Joined: 5 Sep 2005

    Posts: 345

    True, but with in the case of most of those things, not only would he have likely have noticed it in many instances other than squatting, and he’d likely be experiencing a bit of pain too.

    So I’m just saying in that context (in relation to his worry about end up in a wheelchair) a bit of squatting with good form (and sensible weight) is more likely to help than hinder.

    Of course if he’s got a condition that requires surgery to correct then it wouldn’t help and might well make it worse, but then I would have thought he’d probably already know about it in one way or another (and should be going to a doctor about it not a message board :)).
     
  15. Ugiol

    Gangster

    Joined: 1 Dec 2005

    Posts: 121

    Location: Belfast

    My knees used to click even when running, but it passed after a few years, now my left ankle clicks, more sounds like a snap, its pretty loud each time i do toe raises or even walk upstairs, and sometimes normal walking :p doesnt give me any discomfort though.
     
  16. Klytus

    Hitman

    Joined: 16 Jan 2006

    Posts: 828

    Location: Yorkshire

    Not necessarily, Squatting with weight maybe the only thing which produces sufficient compresssion and sheering forces at the patellofemoral (kneecap) joint (reaching 4-5 times bodyweight with around your 70% max squat weight) to bring on the symptoms.

    and a reference about the likelyhood of pain ...

    "Most important to remember, is that knee pain does not always accompany chondromalacia patella and often the degree of chondromalacia patella does not correlate with the symptoms (Kipnis and Scuderi, 1995)."

    Patellofemoral joint dysfunction/maltracking or Chondromalacia Patella does NOT require surgery to treat (ask Jenny McConnell ;) ) There are many conservative options prior to debridement +/- lateral release. Orthopaedic surgeons will often only perform surgery after 6-12 months of conservative treatment has failed or as a last resort (on the NHS).

    Sparky191 - I'm a Physio
     
  17. Fop

    Gangster

    Joined: 5 Sep 2005

    Posts: 345

    But surely if that was the cause of clicking and grinding (i.e. Crepitus – which I thought was usually only treated with clinical concern if pain was involved as well, but maybe not) in this case (and still had no pain showing in any symptoms - which is apparently quite possible, but on the whole is less likely in a case of chondromalacia patella than presenting pain at some point) then all squats, lunges, presses and extensions should probably be avoided in any case? (or at the very best undertaken after a complete exam and with strict trained supervision – in the case of an athlete that really needed to train in that manner for example)

    Although if isn’t not chondromalacia patella, but something else (perhaps biomechanical issue, as you suggest) it’s said that squatting motions may well be better for Patellofemoral joint dysfunction than extension movements and such.

    Which is what I’d always been led to believe, that the squat was actually a very good (and safe) knee exercise when done correctly, with a lot of potential benefits (done badly, with bad form, excessive weight etc, obviously the potential for disaster extends in extremes even up to death, I guess :eek: ).

    But really it goes back the point that if the OP has something that seriously wrong then a visit to the doctors is clearly needed, before they did anything to do with exercise again.

    But I’d think that was being a little overly pessimistic about the whole thing, and on the whole it’s probably not too risky not to worry about what the OP mentions (and certainly ending up in a wheelchair) with good from, non-excessive weight and an absence of pain, but that’s just IMO.
     
  18. Acrotomophilia

    Capodecina

    Joined: 29 Aug 2005

    Posts: 15,416

  19. Klytus

    Hitman

    Joined: 16 Jan 2006

    Posts: 828

    Location: Yorkshire

    yep, agree but who mentioned extensions? thats a whole different topic.

    As my 3rd post states good technique squats WILL strengthen:-
    -Vastus Medialus Obliquus
    -Gluteus Medius (lateral rotation portion)
    (so if weak glutes/VMO are the cause of the problem squats WILL help)

    BUT....

    as stated in my 2nd post squatting will do 'jack' for tightness in:-
    -Illiotibial band (ITB)
    -Rectus Femoris
    -Hamstrings
    -Calves
    -knee retinaculum OR
    -overpronating feet
    -valgus deformity at the heel
    (so if any of these factors are the cause of the problem (clicking/grinding in this case) and are not addressed then squatting may exacerbate it due to the compressive and sheering forces placed on the joint).

    Good technique IS paramount when squatting which I advised in my 1st post and also advised th OP to see a GP if he was concerned about it.
    So are we in agreement now? LOL
     
  20. Fop

    Gangster

    Joined: 5 Sep 2005

    Posts: 345

    Well I dunno as basically what I said was that squats will likely help not hinder and as in the case of most things you mention they are a good exercise (in some cases the best, although some of those things they won't help directly, but may indirectly - with the marked exception of Chondromalacia Patella, but then all potential knee exercises are iffy) and can even help to avoid some of the things you mention (although again the lack of pain would suggest it is likely it isn’t many of the above, at least in an acute stage).

    Clearly if the OP has Chondromalacia Patella then that’s a different thing, but as I said I think that’s about the most pessimistic possible view to take.