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Long term unemployed == unemployable?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by daz, 14 Mar 2010.

  1. daz

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 24,019

    Location: Bucks

    Something seems to be happening (or has happened) with a large swathe of our society. It's possible that this is now the second generation of some families who have no aspirations to get a job and whose life plan is to live off the state, waiting for hand out after hand out.

    The problem for a lot of these people isn't that there are no jobs (although that is a problem in some areas) and it isn't that they don't necessarily "want" to work, because part of them probably does want to work. The problem is that a lot of the people who have been on benefits long term are almost unemployable in terms of their skills, education, and last but not least their attitude to work and motivation to work.

    For whatever reason schools aren't preparing a large number of people for the real working world. Again - that's not necessarily giving them particular skills or knowledge, but it is instilling in their students a motivation and ambition to get on and work and do something with their lives. Perhaps this should start with their parents, but when their parents are exactly the same then you have to break the cycle somewhere. :/
     
  2. SlyReaper

    Soldato

    Joined: 26 Apr 2008

    Posts: 6,583

    Location: Bristol, Old Blighty

    The only truly effective way of breaking that cycle would be to completely rethink the benefits system. Make life more and more uncomfortable for those who refuse to work, and eventually they will become more proactive in finding a job.

    My personal favourite strategy would be to calculate how much money you get from government handouts based on how much you have contributed to the taxman in your life. So for example, someone who has worked a number of years and now finds themselves unemployed would get higher JSA payouts than someone who has never worked. The more years you've worked in your life, the higher your benefit payouts should you ever need them.
     
  3. Spike_UK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 1,716

    Location: Hemel

    I know a few people who haven't worked for years and show no signs of breaking that cycle. They aren't being forced to apply for jobs or anything, they just doss around the house all day without any worries waiting for their next handout.

    They often have more cash to splash than I do too. Makes me really annoyed some days.
     
  4. mollymoo

    Mobster

    Joined: 5 Mar 2009

    Posts: 3,013

    Location: North

    I fully agree with making it harder for the long term unemployed but only if you can prove that they can find work but can't be bothered, it would be unfair to penalise people who trully can't find work and are doing everything in their power to find work. I also believe that the knock-on effect of penalising the long-term unemployed would be a rise in crime.
     
  5. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: 13 May 2003

    Posts: 7,093

    A higher tax free allowance on income tax would be a good first step followed by incremental reining in of the benefits. At the moment the system is so generous and the advantages of working relatively meagre that it doesn't always pay to get back into work.
     
  6. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: 30 Jul 2006

    Posts: 11,970

    Increasing the minimum wage from the present ludicrous figure of £5.80 to at least the £7.14 living wage would be a start.
     
  7. Jokester

    Don

    Joined: 7 Aug 2003

    Posts: 41,771

    Location: Aberdeenshire

    All this does is increase inflation making £7.14 worth the old £5.80.

    I think after a couple of years of being unemployed the state should stop paying benefits but merely provide a (very) low cost room with minimal facilities. Think of it as a prison but without the locks and luxuries that criminals get. Similar facilities to what homeless people can get currently.

    The State should be providing oppurtunities for people not spoon feeding them. As PlacidCasual says things like increasing the tax allowance etc is a good way to make working attractive.
     
  8. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: 30 Jul 2006

    Posts: 11,970

    You reckon that there are so many people being paid below the living wage that increasing the minimum wage would have that much impact then?
     
  9. Jokester

    Don

    Joined: 7 Aug 2003

    Posts: 41,771

    Location: Aberdeenshire

    Has establishing the minimum wage done anything to decrease the numbers of working poor?
     
  10. daz

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 24,019

    Location: Bucks

    I think the issue is that for most people, there is very little incentive for them to go to work. The tax system and benefits system conspire together to make it better for a lot of people to stay on "job seeker's allowance" than to work more than 15 hours a week. Getting rid of council tax entirely, and replacing this with an increase in income tax (no doubt incredibly unpopular) would be a way to encourage people back in to work such that they're not hit by having to pay for something that was previously free when they were unemployed.
     
  11. twist3d0n3

    Capodecina

    Joined: 3 Aug 2008

    Posts: 10,483

    Location: Bath, England

    i can see if the minimum wage gets increased, businesses would move elsewhere, which would make the situation worse.

    the government need to encourage new business in the uk to create more jobs, and cut benefits to get these layabouts into these jobs.
     
  12. _TubbZ_

    Gangster

    Joined: 30 Jun 2009

    Posts: 406

    To be honest if you could do a job and end up with less money after a weeks work than not working then there is no incentive to work. So the only solution is to make an incentive and hand out less cash. But then that will affect these permanent unemployed peeps human rights.

    See this is where dictatorships can be a good thing, if they don't work you shoot them! Which i can't see as a bad thing as i have to pay for these lazy bums to do nothing ;)

    It would be nice to see a graph of unemployment for say the last hundred years...
     
  13. mollymoo

    Mobster

    Joined: 5 Mar 2009

    Posts: 3,013

    Location: North

    I like the idea of paying a business an incentive to take on people from jsa, seeing as though long term employment makes you unattractive to an employer.
     
  14. scorza

    Caporegime

    Joined: 22 Jun 2004

    Posts: 26,685

    Location: Deep England

    I don't buy into this notion that you can play around with the tax and benefits system and suddenly all the under class will wake up one day and say "I need to work". There is a sickness at the core of British society and a holistic approach will be necessary to treat it. The current tax and benefits systems in no way penalises you for working.

    By far the most important treatment is the re-introduction of discipline into the state school system. It's unacceptable that a minority of pupils can disrupt learning at an entire school - these disruptive pupils must be disciplined and ultimately taken out of that school, though I don't know what to do with them after that.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...glish-speakers-instructions-given-Polish.html

    When you see stories like this, about employers openly discriminating against British workers in Britain it's not easy to see that the problems are not entirely the fault of the long-term unemployed.
     
  15. magick

    Mobster

    Joined: 11 Apr 2004

    Posts: 4,415

    +1. The system at the minute means that the average unemployed person doing a minimum wage job at best will be only £30 a week better off after they've paid tax/ni and council tax. You try convincing these long-term unemployed that they should work 40 hours a week doing a job that probably isn't very good for less than a £1 an hour compared to what they'll get staying on benefits.
     
  16. magick

    Mobster

    Joined: 11 Apr 2004

    Posts: 4,415

    No the solution is for the government to stop grabbing so much tax, particularly at the lower end of the economic spectrum, and squnadering it on useless social schemes.
     
  17. daz

    Capodecina

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 24,019

    Location: Bucks

    Of course not everyone on benefits will all of a sudden want to work - but it would be a start for some - a push of encouragement, isn't it?
     
  18. Indy500

    Capodecina

    Joined: 7 Mar 2005

    Posts: 17,509

    A lot of jobs were lost during this recession and won't come back. I see quite a few experienced, degree qualified people working in supermarkets or doing administration duties...

    Clearly there needs to be an incentive to do business here, I'd suggest cutting the local business rates as a start point. Perhaps tax breaks for larger firms if they create X jobs at a factory for example.
     
  19. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: 30 Jul 2006

    Posts: 11,970

    What; you think that jobs such as cleaning, fruit picking, meat processing, hospitality, supermarket shelf-stacking, etc. might be relocated to the Far East or Eastern Europe :confused:
     
  20. Indy500

    Capodecina

    Joined: 7 Mar 2005

    Posts: 17,509

    They'll reduce their workforce, bringing us back to square one.

    Or more of this:

    [​IMG]