Mahatma Gandhi quotes ("separate realities")
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Rejecting the notion of untouchability does not mean he did not support a caste system, just not the one that was currently implemented.
"I believe that caste has saved Hinduism from disintegration."
"To destroy the caste system and adopt the Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation, which is the soul of the caste system. The hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder."
When asked about how he would replace the at the time caste system;
"The best remedy is that small castes should fuse themselves into one big caste. There should be four big castes so that we may reproduce the old system of four Varnas."
If you haven't already looked into it you might find what Dr B. R. Ambedkar had to say about Ghandi interesting, an untouchable himself who went to college in the US and then the LSE, here's a quote;
"Gandhi is the greatest enemy the untouchables have ever had in India."
"I believe that caste has saved Hinduism from disintegration."
"To destroy the caste system and adopt the Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation, which is the soul of the caste system. The hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder."
When asked about how he would replace the at the time caste system;
"The best remedy is that small castes should fuse themselves into one big caste. There should be four big castes so that we may reproduce the old system of four Varnas."
If you haven't already looked into it you might find what Dr B. R. Ambedkar had to say about Ghandi interesting, an untouchable himself who went to college in the US and then the LSE, here's a quote;
"Gandhi is the greatest enemy the untouchables have ever had in India."
I accept he would have made many statements during his lifetime - mostly politically motivated. These were days when the masses were illiterate and oppressed. There is no doubt he did spread propaganda in order to fulfil his own Political agenda.
His views need to taken in context to his lifeline. Did he still hold those views in the latter part of his life when he attained his personal ‘Nirvana’? I don’t think so because his autobiography was entitled ‘The story of my experiments with the truth’
His views need to taken in context to his lifeline. Did he still hold those views in the latter part of his life when he attained his personal ‘Nirvana’? I don’t think so because his autobiography was entitled ‘The story of my experiments with the truth’
Listen to Einstein here: http://streams.gandhiserve.org/einstein.html
Martin Luther King with Photo of Gandhi on his wall : http://www.stevenkasher.com/html/Detail.asp?WorkInvNum=903&whatpage=artist
Soldato
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Care to share the fascination with Gandhi... are you Indian as well?
cleanbluesky said:
Yes I and come from the same background. My parents were born in the same place in India.
This whole thread started form here: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17585881&page=2
Hence I started this thread cause I admire Gandhi. I got wound up by people on this thread labelling him as a racist. Well either the likes of Martin Luther King and Steve Biko were ignorant or forgiving.
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kumar101 said:
Accusations of racism often fly at the slightly hint, whether they are valid or not.
I was reading some of Karl Jungs work (that I value) and people have condemnned some of it as racist - although I think it is definately worth evaluating.
One of his ideas was that people are often happier in the background to which they are accustomed, and suggested that race may play a part in this - I think there is a lot of validity to this, yet there are those that would still accuse.
Wound up? Why? his words and actions are recorded in history, it's not as though anyone has made up anything.kumar101 said:
He did some good things, i'm not denying it. He also seemed to be prejudiced and considered the native africans in south africa to be inferior to Indians, and while "championing" the cause of the Dalits worked against them ever attaining any real power or freedom.
bam0 said:
I would accept this – this was at a time when he was a young hot headed Solicitor starting out his career in SA. I cannot deny the fact they he originated from a country where the caste system existed for many centuries and then into apartheid. His upbringing as a Brahmin would have instilled a superiority complex as well.
The point I’ve been trying to make is that he became a reformed character. This transition is well documented. This is what is most admired about him the World witnessed this change. He needs to be judged on his lifetime achievement. The only thing I would say is don’t judge him on the character he started out as but what he went on to become.
bam0 said:
Bam0, I'm sure that you've done stuff in the past you're now not proud of. We could judge you by them still if you so desire though?
Ghandi was by no means perfect and he knew it. Most notably from his auto-biography was his struggle with lust. For his own wellbeing he decided at the age of 38, despite being married, that he shoud take a vow of celibacy, and he cut any foods from his diet that might have even the slightest aphrodisical affect.
After his transformation and return to India, he never pretended to be anything more than he was, never set out to gain power or money or pretty much anything. He shocked the british media by turning up to meet the King still dressed in his cotton loincloth, and was dragging a goat behind him on a piece of string, his walking 'milk supply'.
Probably Ghandi's biggest single change occured in his life when in South Africa, and it call came down to one book: "The Kingdom of God Is Within You" by Leo Tolstoy, and then his correspondance with the author. After reading that he started taking the Sermon on the Mount from the bible literally, including its principles of non-violence, which then went on to influence other civil liberties leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. He didn't read that book until he'd been out and about in South Africa quite a while, working as a lawyer. Back then he'd taken on all the modern trappings, suits, pocket watches, etc. etc. It was only after he started down this non-christian christian life that his whole attitudes towards humans changed. He almost singlehandedly tore down the caste system in India, by doing such shocking things as inviting an Untouchable to share a house with him, and when he lost funding, went to live in the Untouchable's house.
Through continued non-violent protests Ghandi achieved probably more than any other civil liberties protestor in the last millenia, from amazing protests like the Salt March, a 240 mile march to the sea, which gathered over a million followers, who gathered their own salt as a sign of protest against the British Monopoly over salt in the country. He encouraged all Indians to spend an hour each day spinning cotton, in protest against the British that used the cheap labour in India, shipped the cotton to the UK for spinning and then shipped it back to india to sell at exhorbitant prices. He continued to do this one hour task every day for the rest of his life, except when he was so ill or so near to death as to be physically incapable of it.
His supreme achievement has to come with the impact his Hunger Strikes had. No one wanted to be responsible for "The Great Soul" (as he became known) dying. The most amazing example of this came in "The Miracle at Calcutta", back in 1947 when the movement towards independance swept across the country (which would ultimately result in the existance of Pakistan as a seperate country). Old animosities started to boil to the surface and violence broke out between Muslims and Hindus, with both sides commiting atrocities.
Calcutta was a boiling pot of everything, sitting right on the border of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh.) It has to be one of the most impoverished cities of its time, over 400,000 beggars filled the streets. In a single outbreak of violence over 6,000 people in the city were killed and dumped in the river, or left to rot in the streets, and still the violence went on. Then Lord Mountbatten, who's troops were out west, sent a single man in to deal with Calcutta: Ghandi, who only consented to go if a Muslim and a Hindu leader agreed to stay with him. If a single Hindu died at muslim hands, or vice versa, Ghandi had sworn to fast to death. On arrival in the city he was greeted with angry crowds that pelted him with bottles and stones. Through it all Ghandi walked with one hand raised in a peace gesture, and gave himself into their protection, making his life their responsiblity.
The violence in the city stopped that day, and stayed that way for 16 days. All because one insignificant, frail old man said he'd fast to death. That is just mind blowing.
When it did fail on the 17th day, two Muslims were murdered, a rumour spread about a Hindu victim, and then a grenade was tossed into a bus full of Muslims. Ghandi stopped eating but the violence continued. Already weak and old, within 24 hours his heart started skipping beats and his blood pressure plummeted. 24 hours later almost the entire city was listening to hourly radio updates on his condition, and violence had stopped again, no one willing to take the step that would result in his death. On the third day the gang responsible for the murders turned up, apologised and handed over all their weapons. Soon surrendered weapons were turning up by the truckload, and the religious leaders all signed non-violence pacts, after which Ghandi started eating again.
One frail, weak individual, fasting to death quelled incredible amounts of violence, not just in Calcutta but also fasts he held in New Dehli, and beyond.
My past is my past and will follow me forever, why should Ghandi be any different?Garp said:
Also I don't think you quite understand what i'm talking about here. I recognise the great things that Ghandi did,(seriously I do, he accomplished some amazing things in the most incredible way, and which I doubt many people would have the strength of character to follow),I don't need a lecture on them. I am just interested in the totality of the man, rather than just that which is revered
about that thing you wrote or copied over
(which would ultimately result in the existance of Pakistan as a seperate country).
this is complete pap, he was strongly opposed to dividing up india at all, and did not want a seperate country (pakistan) to be formed at all.
He did, however, want to give them a boat load of money which some leaders of india were opposed to since they thought they would use it for war... blah blah
He should be judged for his actions and some of them were less than great to be frank.. I don't care what the dude said in his autobio or whatever. He definitely had a nice turn of phrase but that doesn't mean he lived by it his whole life.
I know he did some good stuff and repented the bad in his twlight, which is all well and good but I don't think he is quite the hero he is made out to be.
But anyway this thread started out to give quotes the guy said and he definitely has some I like and does have a nice way of saying stuff. Here is one I agree with
"There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God should be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever. "
I did hear he was quite the worrier though....
(which would ultimately result in the existance of Pakistan as a seperate country).
this is complete pap, he was strongly opposed to dividing up india at all, and did not want a seperate country (pakistan) to be formed at all.
He did, however, want to give them a boat load of money which some leaders of india were opposed to since they thought they would use it for war... blah blah
He should be judged for his actions and some of them were less than great to be frank.. I don't care what the dude said in his autobio or whatever. He definitely had a nice turn of phrase but that doesn't mean he lived by it his whole life.
I know he did some good stuff and repented the bad in his twlight, which is all well and good but I don't think he is quite the hero he is made out to be.
But anyway this thread started out to give quotes the guy said and he definitely has some I like and does have a nice way of saying stuff. Here is one I agree with
"There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God should be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever. "
I did hear he was quite the worrier though....
Suspended
Dude, please, sort out your syntax. I value your posts and everything, but they hurt my brain to read.cleanbluesky said:
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Arcade Fire said:Dude, please, sort out your syntax. I value your posts and everything, but they hurt my brain to read.
Sorry I didn't realise, I was typing fast you see...
It's strange that you mention it because I was just looking at this ...
Not sure if this quote is in your links, but I hear the Dalai Lama was once asked what he would do if something in Buddhist teaching was discovered not to be correct. His reply was "change the teaching". How cool is that? And a long way from the huge amounts of dogma attached to Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. which seem to follow the "it's in the scripture therefore it's correct" type rule.cleanbluesky said:
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anarchist said:
Yeah, I agree...
It was a powerful statement. People often think that becasue Buddhism is a religion it is similar to the ones they are familiar with, but its more like a psychological study. In fact, the only thing that stops a person being both a Christian/Muslim/Jew and a Buddhist is the concept of reincanation I think...
cleanbluesky said:
Apart, for christians, of this tiny thing in Exodus 20, the first of the 10 commandments:
So what with statues of Buddha, the raising up of the current generation's Buddha, along with all the previous generations of Buddhas to near God status within the religion/philosphy, makes it all rather hard to even come close to starting on, irrespective of the re-incarnation aspect, and thats hardly even looking at the bible for related passages (can think of a few others on other aspects off the top of my head)