More guns, less crime

[Nix]

I'm not sure I am. If it's illegal to carry firearms outside of the home, then a burglar taking a firearm to a burglary is still in a world of **** legally. I suppose the question is, would a burglar be more likely to take a gun with them if they had access to one? I don't know the answer to that, but I'd probably think they would.

That said, if people can own firearms for home defence, then that increases the danger to the burglar to the extent that the must question whether it's actually worth it.

As I am a strong believer in the legal possession of firearms for home defence, I do not understand why anyone in their right mind wouldn't want one. But then I served 14 years in the Army, so my view is perhaps not typical.

But, does that not also increase the element of fear for the burgler that they may indeed be shot, and thus more likely to turn violent themselves as a pre-emptive?

Handguns arent banned in Northern Ireland and yet very few people seem to own them. I can't recall every hearing of a legally held handgun being used in a crime either. Well apart from when a police officer went a bit nutty at her bit on the side.

Because, as I mentioned: it's a cultural thing. We now unfortunately have a borrowed culture of gang-immitation which think violence, etc. is glamorous. Bring back guns, and you will be arming these people. They are going to commit crime one way or the other. The question is, do you want guns involved? You can always run away from someone carrying a knife. Someone with a gun can still shoot you in the back.

 

[TFleming]

This thread is lol. How can you possibly draw that judgement? There is more to it than just "more guns > less crime in certain areas", you have to look at what type of people are in that area, how urban that area is for example is likely to mean more gun crime. If the state is known for hunting, there are obviously going to be guns and low crime as it is likely to be countryside and full of middle aged people. It's about the eye of the beholder imo. You've got to be pretty crazy to have the guts to shoot someone.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

But, does that not also increase the element of fear for the burgler that they may indeed be shot, and thus more likely to turn violent themselves as a pre-emptive?

It's risk versus reward surely?

 

[Nix]

It's risk versus reward surely?

Which is why the burgler will be looking once again to reduce that risk.

 

[Repta]

Why would you use a legally held firearm in the commission of an offence? You'd have to be the most retarded criminal ever...

The point i was trying to make, legally held guns are rarely used for crime

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Which is why the burgler will be looking once again to reduce that risk.

The only way they can reduce the risk is by not doing the burglary. Taking a firearm with them isn't going to stop them getting killed. Ultimately it'll come down to personal weapon handling skills, calmness under pressure, marksmanship, an element of luck and the firearms involved.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

The point i was trying to make, legally held guns are rarely used for crime

You didn't make the point very well then. Glad it's cleared up though.

 

[Heliospherez]

Handguns arent banned in Northern Ireland and yet very few people seem to own them. I can't recall every hearing of a legally held handgun being used in a crime either. Well apart from when a police officer went a bit nutty at her bit on the side.

Have you ever tried to apply for a handgun licence in Northern Ireland

I doubt you would even be able to get an air pistol licence here (and yes you do need a FAC for an air pistol here) - even a HW45 or Webley Tempest.

The reason no one has a handgun licence is because there is no real life need for them (apart from if you are in the law).... Under the control of firearms law here, the only real firearms we should need are for the control of vermin on fields (air rifles, shotguns) or possibly field sport shooting (that would include rifles and shotguns) - even then the Chief constable has to permit it. There's not a hope in hell he would sign off a handgun for any average Joe Bloggs - as there's no reasonble reason why Joe Bloggs would need a handgun - one of the reasons you rarely hear of legally held handgun crimes in N.I.

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

..........As said earlier, I do not believe that as a society - especially at present - that the majority of so-called 'adults' are responsible enough to raise a child, let alone be trusted with an incredibley dangerous instrument.

What like a car? More people have been killed locally to me with cars that travel at much greater speeds than needed, yet i don't see people wanting to ban them been capable of travelling over our speed limit.


Having said that i see no reason to own anything for home defense....must just be lucky not to be scared in my own house i guess.

 

[Nix]

If a burglar would reason that the risk isn't worth it, they wouldn't be burglaring homes in the first place. You will reduce a small number of individuals who do finally reason that it isn't worth it, but what's the stop them turning to other crime. Likewise, those who still reason it's fine, will simply look to once again level the playing-field and thus potentially turn more violent. All we're doing is bringing in a dangerous weapon en masse and skewing the status quo.

 

[Nix]

What like a car? More people have been killed locally to me with cars that travel at much greater speeds than needed, yet i don't see people wanting to ban them been capable of travelling over our speed limit.


Having said that i see no reason to own anything for home defense....must just be lucky not to be scared in my own house i guess.

Apples and oranges. A car isn't something thats sole purpose is to kill.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

If a burglar would reason that the risk isn't worth it, they wouldn't be burglaring homes in the first place.

You're missing the point. What physical risk realistically is an old man to a young burglar? Almost none. Now give the same old man a gun. Is the risk the same? Of course not.

 

[semi-pro waster]

I'd say we can't know with any real degree of certainty whether crime would increase or decrease at the point of a reintroduction of handguns or more readily available access to other types of firearms. If we can't know then the question inevitably must be; are we so dissatisfied with the current situation that we (as a society) think that the risk of reintroducing firearms will be mitigated by the reward of a more lawful society as a result?

I've had a look at the facts and figures that are available from time to time (limited in use though they may be) and considered it subjectively based on my experiences and I don't think the reintroduction of firearms is a particularly worthwhile option - however it's not a very strongly held opinion, while I'm personally more comfortable not having guns around they aren't intrinsically bad.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Someone mentioned irresponsible drinking and the UK, and thats a great point, few countries seem to have this culture of people 13-30 who seem to mostly just drink for entertainment. Every country has their drinkers but the UK really does seem to have heavy drinking and people out of control making bad decisions.

The USA drinking culture really is drink at house parties, go to clubs but going out just to get drunk and get in fights isn't big there, or anywhere really but the UK.

I for one wouldn't want to see chav's deciding to go shoot instead of stab people, I think we have two problems, an out of control population of heavy drinking morons, and a police force thats getting worse and less effective by the day who simply aren't good enough, or qualified to deal with dealing with the gun crimes that do pop up. Cops in the states are by and large well trained to deal with gun crime and have dealt with it for decades, well, centuries. Lots of gun crime is commited by people with very little experience with guns, criminals get them and use them, the police train hard over there, our police would be facing gun toting criminals very quickly while having no where near the experience required to deal with it, which will encourage people to commit crimes if they feel the police can't handle it at all.

Bad idea, I don't actually think guns are bad or cause crimes, canada has huge gun ownership and very little gun crime, but I think a country can't really introduce them and suddenly be at the same point as countries that grew up with them.

 

[Tefal]

You're missing the point. What physical risk realistically is an old man to a young burglar? Almost none. Now give the same old man a gun. Is the risk the same? Of course not.

So the bugler takes a gun.

although normaly when you rob a place you pic somewhere with none home so the point is moot.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

So the bugler takes a gun.

although normaly when you rob a place you pic somewhere with none home so the point is moot.

Read the thread. We've been through this once already - I'm not repeating myself

Gratz on the Ninja

 

[Nix]

You're missing the point. What physical risk realistically is an old man to a young burglar? Almost none. Now give the same old man a gun. Is the risk the same? Of course not.

No, that point is evident. But the old man is perfectly able to call the police and have them apprehend the suspect.

Introduce guns and things suddenly get ugly. If the old man suddently feels he has a leveller in terms of a hand-gun, does this mean he'll suddenly have the courage to confront the antagonist whereas before he could 'safely' hide away?

The point is this: introduce guns and things turn murky.

What is the point in upsetting the status quo as it is? It's not broken, so what exactly needs fixing? For someone to be burgled that have to be pretty unfortunate in the first place, and this can be prevented with improved doors, windows and locks, not a bloody handgun.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

What is the point in upsetting the status quo as it is? It's not broken, so what exactly needs fixing?

You are wrong. The status quo is heavily in favour of the burglar and not the home owner. That balance needs to be neutral.

IMHO of course.

For someone to be burgled that have to be pretty unfortunate in the first place, and this can be prevented with improved doors, windows and locks, not a bloody handgun.

Because criminals never find ways to circumvent security technology?

 

[Nix]

You are wrong. The status quo is heavily in favour of the burglar and not the home owner. That balance needs to be neutral.

IMHO of course.

Yes it is, but the victim is still able to prevent this with adequate security are they not? What good will a gun do apart from giving the 'old man' an option to confront said burglar and potentially end up on the receiving end of a bullet himself?

Because criminals never find ways to circumvent security technology?

So then, we improve our police-force's ability to catch the criminals, and improve our judicial system's ability to deal with them so they do not re-offend.

Guns are really not the answer here.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Yes it is, but the victim is still able to prevent this with adequate security are they not? What good will a gun do apart from giving the 'old man' an option to confront said burglar and potentially end up on the receiving end of a bullet himself?

On the basis that they can afford the security, then sure, they should have it. But a hand gun costs less than £250, a shotgun not much more. The guy doesn't even have to shoot it, just stand near an open window while the burglar's trying to get in and rack a shell/fire a warning shot. Burglars aren't brave and they aren't going to get into a shoot out for the sake of a £300 TV. They are opportunists.

So then, we improve our police-force's ability to catch the criminals, and improve our judicial system's ability to deal with them so they do not re-offend.

Guns are really not the answer here.

The Police are absolutely ineffective when it comes to burglary. When it comes to protecting my family, I absolutely want to be able to legally do that with the minimum of risk to myself.

Guns may not be the answer for you, but I wouldn't want to see you made to have one, I just want to have the option to have one if I want.