MS FS 2020, anyone talking about this?

[Devrij]

Ages ago they said they would be adding VR to the new flight sim after launch, and to me that sounds just immense as a VR experience, given the graphical fidelity inside and out of the planes. 3rd party support gives us hope for things like flyinside to add support for hand tracking so you can toggle all those switches by hand... I mean it could be just incredible.

I am mightily tempted to get back into VR just for this, when I can afford it and we get some new headsets that add something new in terms of reducing screen door effect even more and maybe have a bigger sweet spot. Or good upscaling to improve performance on a high res display.

Anyone else watching with interest?

 

[andy_mk3]

It's going to be utterly amazing in VR. Xplane11 is awesome in VR, FS2020 with its level of graphics is going to be just the best thing ever! I'm really excited for VR to be implemented.

Asobo dropped the ball in the beginning, not realising the importance of having VR in the sim.

 

[Devrij]

It's going to be utterly amazing in VR. Xplane11 is awesome in VR, FS2020 with its level of graphics is going to be just the best thing ever! I'm really excited for VR to be implemented.

Asobo dropped the ball in the beginning, not realising the importance of having VR in the sim.

Yeah, agreed. I was pleasantly surprised when they held their hands up and said they'd add it though.

 

[lokiss]

You'd hope that there's some tenuous link with the Reverb G2 and fs2020. Even if Microsoft's involvement on the technical has been minimal, there's a huge opportunity to cross promote the device with the game given the fidelity of the display.

It's a great way for MS to backdoor their way in on mainstream VR if they choose to use it. The apprehension i have is that they're aiming fs2020 at the XBOX just as much, and they absolutely want no association with VR and the XBOX platform at this time. That could change in a year or two after the XBOX becomes an established platform free of the marketing and hype, then the cynic in me says they'll get around to adding VR to flight sim.

I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year your still asking where's the VR.

 

[kevman]

Shame that VR has not been baked in on release - adding on VR can be a bit hit and miss. With all the effort they have gone with the high fidelity graphics I feel reasonably confident they will add VR in at some point

 

[Zeeflyboy]

Shame that VR has not been baked in on release - adding on VR can be a bit hit and miss. With all the effort they have gone with the high fidelity graphics I feel reasonably confident they will add VR in at some point

While true in general, I think sims are generally on the hit side. They don't have an issue with adjusting fundamental game mechanics to suit the new paradigm as they inherently suit it from the start... See IL2, DCS, X-plane, Aerofly FS2, Project Cars, AC etc etc... all have perfectly good VR implementations added after the fact. Some have gone the full hog and added motion controller support, others haven't, but all are very usable and a lot of fun. Would it have been ideal to have included it from the very beginning? Yes, but I don't think it's going to lead to a poor VR implementation in this case...

You'd hope that there's some tenuous link with the Reverb G2 and fs2020. Even if Microsoft's involvement on the technical has been minimal, there's a huge opportunity to cross promote the device with the game given the fidelity of the display.

I really, really doubt it. From everything we know, including the interview I saw with the HP team behind it suggests that Microsoft's involvement is purely the fact they are using WMR. Given it's the first new WMR headset to be using 4 cameras and updated controllers there was no doubt plenty of collaboration to get that all up and running on the WMR platform, but I'd be fairly confident to bet that is where Microsoft's involvement ends. Valve helped design the lenses and lifted the audio solution straight from the index without modification, and helped with various other aspects of the design, the rest was HP.

Xbox game studios have shown time and time again that they just aren't interested in VR as a format currently. If it comes to MSFS2020 then it will almost certainly be the exception rather than the rule... the sim community in gaming is a bit unique in how much they spend on hardware, and their eagerness to use what would be very niche items in wider gaming (triple screens, expensive peripherals, haptics, motion, VR etc).

I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year your still asking where's the VR.

Quite possible, but they have gone on record as saying VR is a "high priority" for them now, so I think many in the community will hold their feet to the coals if that's the case.

This sim will certainly be demanding to run in VR, especially on something like a G2, but definitely doable with some sacrifices... of course the main thing this sim has going for it at the moment over the competition is the incredible visuals across such a broad area so dialling them back somewhat defeats the point. If they could have VR out by the end of the year when the new GPUs are out I would consider that a win, pretty sure the higher end GPUs from the next generation will be able to run it very nicely even at the G2's 90hz/2k per eye with decent settings.

I've massively enjoyed the alpha/open beta but I simply won't be bothering with actually buying it and investing serious time until it's in VR. Sitting just offshore from a tropical beach bobbing gently up and down in the A5 Icon just illicits a "wish this was in VR" from me!

 

[kevman]

IL2, DCS, X-plane, Aerofly FS2, Project Cars, AC

I would agree that most driving games seem to be easier to add VR than flight sims - certainly for me I have had good experiences with PC and AC (ACC not so much)
For the flight sims its a real mixed bag. IL2 is passable but x-plane and dcs are both system hogs when it comes to VR. I still play DCS a lot but most things are turned right down simply to run at 45/60 fps.

Im with you on this one though no vr no buy

 

[Zeeflyboy]

ACC is much better now btw if you haven't tried it recently, after some time playing around with settings I've managed to get the clarity up to a comparable level to PC2/AMS2/RF2 with good perf on my 2070S, but admittedly I have had to lose mirrors to get there. Hoping a new GPU from the next gen lineup will give me the raw grunt to get it all working because I've been absolutely smashing hours of ACC lately!

I do agree on the GPU horsepower front but ultimately these games are mostly demanding in pancake with the settings and resolution turned up... it follows that they will be even more of a struggle in VR due to the nature of what we are asking the systems to do. I don't necessarily think that is to do with whether VR is included from the get go, rather that demanding games will be demanding and MSFS will be no exception I'm sure. Thankfully there's a new generation of GPUs shortly to arrive and the GPU market is seeing competition levels we haven't see for years... Hopefully we will get several solid years of big performance leaps as a result!

It would however be nice to see more games making use of things like FidelityFX and DLSS as those could really help reduce the rendering load/increase the overall IQ for VR, and of course there are some VR specific optimisations like Nvidia's SPS which more games should really be using. iRacing recently added SPS and gained 30%+ perf in VR as a result... again though that's a game that added VR as an afterthought which kind of reinforces the point I was making.

Ultimately I guess my point was that I think "normal" games can be really hit or miss when VR modes are added because the core gameplay mechanics may simply not suit it. For sims it's really just about the optimisations needed to get them to run well and that doesn't really matter too much whether it's considered from the get go or further down the line, they just need to be added. Certainly there are certain design choices (like deferred rendering) that make life harder if you decide to add VR afterwards but they aren't unworkable.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

Well finally some update on VR!

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/07/30/microsoft-flight-simulator-steam-track-ir-and-vr-support/

Today we are excited to announce that Microsoft Flight Simulatorwill have TrackIR support available on day one, and VR support will be available later this year in time for the launch of the HP Reverb G2!

Created by HP in collaboration with Microsoft and Valve, the upcoming Reverb G2 headset has a bright, high resolution display, excellent tracking, and immersive audio to take maximum advantage of Microsoft Flight Simulator’sincredible visuals and fully 3D soundscape. The HP Reverb G2 will be available later this fall and the VR update will be a free update for all Microsoft Flight Simulator players.

it does appear they are specifically pushing the G2 too.

 

[melmac]

Well finally some update on VR!

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/07/30/microsoft-flight-simulator-steam-track-ir-and-vr-support/





it does appear they are specifically pushing the G2 too.

Time to build a full size cockpit!!

 

[Zeeflyboy]

Hah, but in VR there's no point - you automatically get a full size cockpit!

Some interesting quotes from Arstechnica:

The team also wasn't ready to clarify how hand-tracked controllers might work within the game's VR version. "It's an iterative process," Asobo CCO David Dedeine said. "We're trying to find something universal, that will work no matter what device you're using. We have interesting prototypes using advanced controls, I will say. There are exciting things happening. I am already amazed at what the team has made, in order to improve interactions with the cockpit in VR. It's different than interacting with a mouse. What we've already experienced is brilliant and will inform the current version of the game."

Asobo insists that the VR mode should target something close to the game's "medium" graphics preset, which, in my experience, is quite high-res: sufficiently fluffy clouds, relatively dense landscapes. The team says this graphical fidelity boils down to things like efficient CPU rendering ("the way you compute the right eye, then move much of that to the left eye") and expertise with the low-powered Hololens headset. "Hololens is a mobility device, and [our projects for that] forced us to ultimate optimization," Dedeine said. "So our team is plug-and-play on this subject."

 

[melmac]

Hah, but in VR there's no point - you automatically get a full size cockpit!

Some interesting quotes from Arstechnica:

oh, you can't be a true flight sim enthusiast without your own cockpit at home

It definitely looks like they are putting a lot of effort into getting the VR side of things right. I am not into flight sims myself, but this might be a game I will get just to experience the VR. It's good to see a developer going the extra mile.

And as off topic aside.

Spoiler

You made some really valid points in the GPU section about DLSS. But, as you have seen, saying anything positive about DLSS in the GPU forum gets your post attacked by angry red mob and Eastcoast is the worst. Don't know if you are thinking about replying to his latest post, but I wouldn't bother replying anymore if I was you. As you have probably realised, been in a discussion with EastCoast is a surreal experience. He makes up stuff, moves the goal posts and a lot of what he says is so nonsensical that it's a hard to believe a person would write such crap and actually believe it.

As evidence just look at his reply to your post. So much wrong where would you even start to respond?

For some reason they have a particularly strong dislike for DLSS. It seems that Nvidia going back to the drawing board and coming up with something better with DLSS 2.0 is a very bad thing.

And he says you have a Nvidia Bias, lol.

I wonder what they will say when AMD do actually come out with their own version? They already have implemented the hardware to support directML in their GPU.

Anyway, don't mean to drag this section off topic, just wanted to reply to you about your post.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

In all honesty I most definitely do not qualify as a true flight sim enthusiast lol... In fact by and large I find vanilla flight sims very dull for anything other than very short periods. I would generally much prefer to be trying to wrestle a spitfire in a dogfight in IL2!

Being on the Alpha for FS2020 though, I think it's reached a pivotal point for me where I could see myself spending several hours in VR just enjoying the views and exploring the more interesting areas of the world... flatscreen despite it's charms, it still doesn't do quite enough to snag me for extended periods. I think VR will change that along with the clarity from the G2 I pre-ordered last week. That said, a couple of weeks ago I did fly into SPU on it just to remind myself of how it looks before I went there (for real) the first time in a few years, and it was surprisingly good.

As to the rest, yeah that's the impression I got so I'm not going to bother hitting my head against a brick wall!

 

[Worthy]

Yep, absolutely cannot wait for this. Started getting into XP11 at the end of last year (Zibo 737) and I still do a couple of flights a week. I'm a bit gutted that there won't be a 737 in there at launch, but I can try my hand in the 787 which I may just stick with, it depends on how that baby feels!

It does mean buying the mega expensive version but MSFS is one of those games that lasts for years and years.

 

[melmac]

In all honesty I most definitely do not qualify as a true flight sim enthusiast lol... In fact by and large I find vanilla flight sims very dull for anything other than very short periods. I would generally much prefer to be trying to wrestle a spitfire in a dogfight in IL2!

Being on the Alpha for FS2020 though, I think it's reached a pivotal point for me where I could see myself spending several hours in VR just enjoying the views and exploring the more interesting areas of the world... flatscreen despite it's charms, it still doesn't do quite enough to snag me for extended periods. I think VR will change that along with the clarity from the G2 I pre-ordered last week. That said, a couple of weeks ago I did fly into SPU on it just to remind myself of how it looks before I went there for the first time in a few years, and it was surprisingly good.

As to the rest, yeah that's the impression I got so I'm not going to bother hitting my head against a brick wall!

Ha, I actually bought a flight stick for the first time ever!! So I am ready And you are right, flight sims never worked for me in 2D but in VR these games are a lot different!!

As to the rest, yeah that's the impression I got so I'm not going to bother hitting my head against a brick wall!

smart man

 

[Zeeflyboy]

If the stock 320 pre-release is any indication you might be disappointed coming from a high quality 3rd party 737 to the stock one anyway... I hope to be pleasantly surprised by a jump in systems and flight fidelity by launch, but I remain sceptical until they prove otherwise. It only needs a few tweaks here and there to make it perfectly serviceable but it's not going to be close to study level (unless they are keeping back some serious updates) if that's your goal.

I think you always have to view such stock sim aircraft content as a baseline, albeit in this case hopefully a pretty usable baseline. It's not really feasible to accurately model every single aspect of such a complex system as an airliner when it's being bundled into the cost of the game along with several others. It will always require an investment of time and resources that needs separate paid DLC (or an incredibly expensive base game I suppose).

 

[Zeeflyboy]

Ha, I actually bought a flight stick for the first time ever!! So I am ready And you are right, flight sims never worked for me in 2D but in VR these games are a lot different!!

Totally. For example I love cars, I love driving, and I've always felt like I should love driving games... would make sense right? Alas they have always ended up as dull as dishwater for me after no more than half an hour! Along comes VR, and for example last night I spent 3 hours playing ACC and only stopped because my butt was getting sore lol.

What stick did you go for?

 

[melmac]

That's my next purchase a racing wheel. But I want to do it right and get a the whole seat and everything. It's the only way to play. VR adds that massive sense of been there that monitors just can't even come close to.

Ah, mate, I went cheap It's the old reliable Thrustmaster Hotas-X. It's probably nothing to you guys, but to me it feels awesome

 

[lokiss]

You'd hope that there's some tenuous link with the Reverb G2 and fs2020. Even if Microsoft's involvement on the technical has been minimal, there's a huge opportunity to cross promote the device with the game given the fidelity of the display.

Heh. Mostly the rose tinted specs cloud my VR predictions

Now for another, lets call it the Alex effect. MS flight sim carries the same kind of gravitas to it's followers as hl does, we just got many more eyes on purchasing a HMD.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

Fair play mate, you called it!

Yes, I agree. And one benefit of them pushing the G2 is that it is going to be one hell of an experience for people new to the medium if they go that route.

@melmac - I think the law of diminishing returns is important to remember in peripherals. Pretty much any half decent peripheral (be it wheel, stick, pedals etc) is so far above a keyboard and mouse or console controller for these sort of games that it isn't even worth debating. Above that though, every step up the chain costs increasingly more money for decreasingly little in return and just refines the experience rather than defines it... Occasionally you'll hit a significant level that does add more value again, such as for example crossing the price threshold into loadcell pedals from position based ones, but then it goes straight back to relatively little real value return on further investments and still doesn't change the game in the same way as that first step to just a basic but functional dedicated peripheral does.

So that's an incredibly long way of saying you'll love it regardless