Never ever going to buy another ipod or reconmend them to any one

[BoomAM]

I'm sorry but now you are trying to base your argument on a technicality, this was never about to trying prove whether itunes can perform a D&D operation,

Thats what ive been arguing for all along!
And ive been trying to explain since pt.1 that there was a difference to what you & me were on about!

you're arguing that intunes is drag and drop, well that's all dandy but what happens after that?

It scans the tags of the files, creates its own database of those tags, and then when an iPod it attached, it then begins a sync.
Ive never said that it starts transfering as its Dbing.

are the files in the same order on the ipod as they were D&D'd into itunes? nope. is that really drop and drop then?

Ive never said they were copyed like for like.
Ive said that iTunes is using a D/D interface. Like EVERY other program out there.

Again, D/D in regards to file transfers, which you lot are arguing for, is not the be all and end all of D/D.
D/D covers a lot of the GUI that you see before you as you type.

Using your logic, nothing but dragging music to a music player in explorer is drag/drop.

 

[BoomAM]

Drag and drop : To directly manipulate an object by moving it and placing it somewhere else using a pointing device (such as a mouse).

Is that what you're doing with itunes?

Yes.
Im moving a object and placing it into iTunes using a pointing device.
I can do this by dragging it. Which would class it as D/D, or set iTunes to autoimport, which isnt D/D.

 

[BoomAM]

Heres one for you lot then:
Are you lot denying that dragging a music folder over a iTunes window and dropping it, isnt Drag & Drop?
This'll be interesting...

 

[james.miller]

just because you can drag something into itunes, doesnt mean the player is drag and drop does it?

you're arguing that intunes is drag and drop, well that's all dandy but what happens after that? are the files in the same order on the ipod as they were D&D'd into itunes? nope. is that really drop and drop then?
http://www.learningservices.gcal.ac.uk/it/staff/definitions.html#D


Is that what you're doing with itunes?

No BoomAM, that is not what your doing with it. you are not directly manipulating the file. you are telling itunes to build a database from that file and upload that to the ipod.

 

[BoomAM]

Its obvious that you lot have a severely warped view of D/D.
Regardless of wether it manipulates the file, its still drag & drop. Fact.
The same way that dragging an image into word is D/D.
The same way that dragging some text into word is D/D.

Lets look at Apples definition of D/D.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&star.../mac/MacAppProgGuide/MacAppProgGuide-157.html
'A mechanism for using direct cursor manipulation to drag selected data and drop it into another view, window, or application.'
Just like what iTunes does.
The data that is involved doesnt have to be directly manipulated for it to be classed as D/D.

But of course, you lot know more than the people who make the actual software.

Oh, and the Db file isnt uploaded to the iPod. The MP3 files themselves can still be accessed on the iPod if the drive function is enabled.
The only difference is that they are organised into Fxx directories by iTunes.
Manipulated if you wish.

 

[BoomAM]

I think we're gonna all have to agree to disagree here.
I can see this argument going around in circles.
Agreed? (to disagree? )

 

[fish99]

The way I've always understood it, 'drag and drop' has a specific meaning when it comes to MP3 players, and it's not the same as it means when referring to applications. I doubt apple describe their players as drag and drop capable, even if their software is.

 

[BoomAM]

The way I've always understood it, 'drag and drop' has a specific meaning when it comes to MP3 players, and it's not the same as it means when referring to applications. I doubt apple describe their players as drag and drop capable, even if their software is.

Exactely.
But i cant seem to explain to the others this concept.
They seem to refuse to accept that the iTunes software is D/D software.
But the player/intergration with iTunes isnt D/D.
They think that im saying that dragging into iTunes is like dragging onto the iPod drive in explorer. Which im not saying.

 

[Things change I've changed]

Its obvious that you lot have a severely warped view of D/D.
Regardless of wether it manipulates the file, its still drag & drop. Fact.
The same way that dragging an image into word is D/D.
The same way that dragging some text into word is D/D.

Yes drag and drop in a sence but not in the same CONTEXT as we was discussing, so don't try and wiggle out of it with a technicality .

Lets look at Apples definition of D/D.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&star.../mac/MacAppProgGuide/MacAppProgGuide-157.html
'A mechanism for using direct cursor manipulation to drag selected data and drop it into another view, window, or application.'
Just like what iTunes does.
The data that is involved doesnt have to be directly manipulated for it to be classed as D/D.

But of course, you lot know more than the people who make the actual software.

What on earth does this prove ? , that link takes you to the glossary of terminologies from a Programmer's Guide to MacApp book from 1996, what has that got to do with itunes, oh dear we are clutching at straws arn't we .

EDIT -

I think we're gonna all have to agree to disagree here.
I can see this argument going around in circles.
Agreed? (to disagree? )

Fine, oh wait, theres more,

EDIT -

Exactely.
But i cant seem to explain to the others this concept.
They seem to refuse to accept that the iTunes software is D/D software.
But the player/intergration with iTunes isnt D/D.
They think that im saying that dragging into iTunes is like dragging onto the iPod drive in explorer. Which im not saying.

WHAT ????, you really are being sly now, NOW you are agreeing (in a roundabout way) more or less to what we,ve been trying to explain to YOU, you really are trying to save face on this arn't you.

 

[BoomAM]

You seem to enjoy arguing dont you?
Well, lets keep you entertained...

Yes drag and drop in a sence but not in the same CONTEXT as we was discussing, so don't try and wiggle out of it with a technicality .

As you were discussing. Ive been saying all along what ive explained in my last 2-3 posts.

What on earth does this prove ? , that link takes you to the glossary of terminologies from a Programmer's Guide to MacApp book from 1996, what has that got to do with itunes, oh dear we are clutching at straw arn't we .

Because i highly doubt that Apples definitions of D/D has changed since them. As D/D is still fundimentally the same.

WHAT ????, you really are being sly now, NOW you agreeing (in a roundabout way) more or less to what we,ve been trying to explain to YOU, you really are trying to save face on this arn't you.

lol.
Your a cheaky little monkey arnt you?
Im not trying to get out of anything, and do you really think im bothered about 'saving face' on a net forum?

All along you lot have been misinterpriting what ive been saying, and now its finally come to light that we've had our wiring cross over certain parts of the argument, you, just you lowrider007, think im trying to worm my way out?
Obviously you have a very low opinion of me. And im bothered. No really, i am.

 

[Things change I've changed]

You seem to enjoy arguing dont you?
Well, lets keep you entertained...

ok, please do b-cos i'm really starting to find your ignorance amusing now.

As you were discussing. Ive been saying all along what ive explained in my last 2-3 posts.

From the beginning the issue has been that itunes is NOT drag and drop in the same context as what everybody else seems to understand, the problem was that I and other people did not like the way itunes arranged your music files, and it does not offer a proper drag and drop feature, WHICH IT DOES NOT, we are talking about music files not word documents, if you mention drag and drop and mp3's in the same centance even a 10 year old kid will undertand the context in which it is meant.

Because i highly doubt that Apples definitions of D/D has changed since them. As D/D is still fundimentally the same.

Apples definitions, oh yeh, invented just after 1979 when work started on the "lisa gui intaface", funnily enougth they also explain what drag and drop is

"Lisa interface was the first to have the idea that icons could represent all files in the filesystem, which could then be browsed through using a hierarchal directory structure where each directory opened in a new window. The idea of "drag-and-drop" was also invented at this time, and the concept of using drag and drop to do file manipulation for example, selecting a group of files with the mouse and then dragging them to a new folder to copy them."

Funny that, thats how we all seem'd to of understood it.

All along you lot have been misinterpriting what ive been saying, and now its finally come to light that we've had our wiring cross over certain parts of the argument, you, just you lowrider007, think im trying to worm my way out?
Obviously you have a very low opinion of me. And im bothered. No really, i am.

Tbh I find it very strange how you have came to the conclusion that it was us that have misinterpreted you when it was blatantly the other way around.

Does this look familiar,

I think we're gonna all have to agree to disagree here.
I can see this argument going around in circles.
Agreed? (to disagree? )

 

[Sparky191]

From very early in this thread...

...YOU don't understand the difference. An interface that uses drag and drop is NOT the same as drag and drop in the context of an MP3 player.....

...I fully understand the difference. I just choose not to accept as a difference when it isnt one imo....

 

[SexyGreyFox]

I'm with BoomAm on this one.
Dragging and dropping is when you get a file and drag it into an application.
This is the way I have worked ever since windows could do it and the first application open on my machine is Directory Opus where I drag my files from.
Its also one of the first things I try to teach new users how to do.
Dragging and dropping a file into I-Tunes is definitely drag and drop but the problems become apparent if you don't tag the file and it ends up anywhere on the IPOD.

 

[Things change I've changed]

I'm with BoomAm on this one.
Dragging and drop is when you get a file and drag it into an application.

Which you are not doing, itunes just tags it and places the name of the file into it's database, yes it is a form of drag and drop, but you are not actually drag and droping the ACTUAL mp3 files themselfs,

quote,

The idea of "drag-and-drop" was also invented at this time, and the concept of using drag and drop to do file manipulation for example, selecting a group of files with the mouse and then dragging them to a new folder to ***copy them***."

Yes itunes has a drag and drop interface, BUT, like i,ve said before it does not allow you to actually drag and drop your actual mp3 files into it and sort them the way in which we/I want, as said before, we mean't from the beginning, drag and drop in the context of an MP3 player which is a known term in the mp3 player industry and just about everywhere on the planet, why when your talking about music files and mp3's players could be be talking about it in any other context.

This is the way I have worked ever since windows could do it and the first application open on my machine is Directory Opus where I drag my files from.
Its also one of the first things I try to teach new users how to do.
Dragging and dropping a file into I-Tunes is definitely drag and drop but the problems become apparent if you don't tag the file and it ends up anywhere on the IPOD.

Directory Opus is a file mananger so when you drag and drop files using that then you really are truely drag and droping files in real time (in the same context as a drag and drop mp3 player), there are no real restrictions, so your not wrong on that point, but itunes however is not a windows file manager and can not handle real time drag and drop of ACTUAL FILES.

 

[Sparky191]

LOL ... whos on first base?

The OP had a problem with the iTunes installation screwing up his PC. Nothing to do with drag and drop. For some reason he got slagged off for having a software installation problem. Nice community spirit there.

I pointed out very early in this thread that theres a difference between UMS drag and drop and drag and drop in an interface. Some of you have taken drag and drop to ONLY mean dragging and dropping in an interface. Which isn't correct. Its also means UMS drag and drop. If you actually read what was posted it was obvious UMS drag and drop was what was being talked about. In the english language context is very important, and I don't mean that to sound like a dig at anyone.

iTunes can be confusing because it superficially looks and acts like a file manager. But it isn't. Its client to an XML tag database that can transfer files and wrap DRM around files. That disparity is what confuses people. It uses drag and drop not to move files but to edit tags. Most people expect a drag and drop interface/action to move something. In fact its inconsistent if you have iTunes set to organise your music file's it will move them, if you don't it won't. Ditto choosing to copy files to the library on import.

UI design is kinda a hobby horse of mine. So apologies if it seems I'm dragging this out. I'm just interested in it.

 

[basmic]

Buy yourself a cheap generic 1gb MP3 player. I pretty much guarantee you'll have to spend far less hassle and time transferring an MP3 to it. You can get 1gb for about £40, IIRC.

Better still, buy a Creative.

 

[BoomAM]

I'm with BoomAm on this one.

Thank you.
Someone who sees my point of view on the matter.

Also agree on the tag issue. iPods are very picky about the tags. I tend to manually check all the tags when ive ripped them, to save me problems in the future.

Which you are not doing, itunes just tags it and places the name of the file into it's database, yes it is a form of drag and drop, but you are not actually drag and droping the ACTUAL mp3 files themselfs,

No-ones clamied otherwise. All that i myself have claimed, is that it performs an operation.

...Most people expect a drag and drop interface/action to move something.

Who's this 'most' people?
I certainly dont expect it to move something.
Thats the general concencus in this thread. That a D/D operation must 'move' something. When thats not what D/D is just about.
Again, put it down to confusion as to what context is ment if you want.

UI design is kinda a hobby horse of mine. So apologies if it seems I'm dragging this out. I'm just interested in it.

NP from my point of view.
I dont mind commenting that the main thing that annoys me about iTunes, is the fact that main music control thing at the top doesnt nessessarily control whats playing. Very annoying at times. And the very non-descript errors that it somestimes pops up with.

 

[BoomAM]

Out of curiosity, how is the Nano treated by Windows itself? Does it need drivers, or does Windows recognise it as a USB Flash drive (as thats basically what it is).

 

[Things change I've changed]

Thank you.
Someone who sees my point of view on the matter.

Yes, **ONE**, and even then they was comparing itunes to a file manager which we both know is not he same thing, one can drag and drop files, the other can not.

Also agree on the tag issue. iPods are very picky about the tags. I tend to manually check all the tags when ive ripped them, to save me problems in the future.

I find it just laughable how over the last few posts you seem to be slyly warming to some of our points of view yet you make out you had these same points of view from the begginning, , do you not remember your first post, shall I remind you, AGAIN,

"The challenges of loading iTunes, dragging the music into it, and then just plugging in the iPod.
Lets not do anything hard here.
If you want help reading the above let me know and i'll spell it out phonetically"

Lets forget that your implying we are stupid and don't know how to use itunes and concentrate on the fact that this post also convey's that all you have to do is simply just drag your music into itunes and just plug in your ipod, yet now 20 posts later you are saying

"Also agree on the tag issue. iPods are very picky about the tags"

UHHH, make up your mind, this was what my original complaint was about, so now what your saying is that you agree, I must say if your mission is just to confuse us then your doing a blinding job.

No-ones clamied otherwise. All that i myself have claimed, is that it performs an operation.

ummmm, it seems the more you learn how wrong you was the more you change your terminology, now your saying "an operation" where as before you was saying "Drag and Drop", strange that.

Who's this 'most' people?

Urrrr, proberbly about 90-98% of everyone, infact its like he said, most people, I and half a dozen people have told you to look on the net to clarify what we have told you.

I certainly dont expect it to move something.

Tell that to all the millions of people out there that have went out there way to by DRAG AND DROP MP3 players, if that "something" did'nt move then they would'nt have any music to listen to.

Thats the general concencus in this thread. That a D/D operation must 'move' something. When thats not what D/D is just about.
Again, put it down to confusion as to what context is ment if you want.

How many times have we been over this , we/I from the beggining have been talking about drag and drop in a mp3 player context, why are you finding it so hard to understand, that is NOT the same as drag and droping file NAMES (not files) into itunes.

NP from my point of view.
I dont mind commenting that the main thing that annoys me about iTunes, is the fact that main music control thing at the top doesnt nessessarily control whats playing. Very annoying at times. And the very non-descript errors that it somestimes pops up with.

Again I will remind you that in the beginning you was making out we/I had lack of knowledge of how to use itunes b-cos we/I did'nt like the way itunes ran, NOW AGAIN in the same post you are telling us that parts of itunes annoys you and has "very non-descript errors that it somestimes pops up"

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Which you are not doing, itunes just tags it and places the name of the file into it's database, yes it is a form of drag and drop, but you are not actually drag and droping the ACTUAL mp3 files themselfs,

I don't know what version of I-Tunes you are using but the new one that my kids use puts the MP3 direct onto the IPOD (the one I had last March didn't).
You drag the file into I-Tunes and the MP3 file goes direct onto the IPOD.
That is drag and drop.
End of.