"Operation Unthinkable" by Winston Churchill

[do_ron_ron]

Napoleon took Moscow, totaly defeated the Russian Army any time they meet and battle took place. He stay in Moscow for about 4 months but left it to late in the year to head home. Winter came in and he lost the bulk of his army, if he had of left Moscow a month earlyer we would all be speaking french now, from LondonDerry to Moscow.

The French army was used to living off the land as they invaded. This was OK in Central Europe(had problems in Spain) with a large agricultural base but not in Russia with thinly populated areas. The Russian CinC, Barcley, conducted a policy of scorched earth withdrawal leading the French further into Russia knowing that the French would have greater problems the further they advanced.

Kutuzov, who replaced Barclay, carried on the same policy until Borodino.

Napolean pressed on to Moscow which was fired. The French troops had no shelter from the harsh Russain winter and very little food.

The lack of supplies decimated his army and the usual diseases, thypus etc killing more than the Russians.

If he had left Moscow a month earlier it would have made no difference, like the Germans in WW2, the French were defeated by the vastness of the country, the conditions and the problems that ensued

 

[Orcish-Horde]

The French army was used to living off the land as they invaded. This was OK in Central Europe(had problems in Spain) with a large agricultural base but not in Russia with thinly populated areas. The Russian CinC, Barcley, conducted a policy of scorched earth withdrawal leading the French further into Russia knowing that the French would have greater problems the further they advanced.

Kutuzov, who replaced Barclay, carried on the same policy until Borodino.

Napolean pressed on to Moscow which was fired. The French troops had no shelter from the harsh Russain winter and very little food.

The lack of supplies decimated his army and the usual diseases, thypus etc killing more than the Russians.

If he had left Moscow a month earlier it would have made no difference, like the Germans in WW2, the French were defeated by the vastness of the country, the conditions and the problems that ensued

It was not so much as living of the land but more a case of buying what they needed from the locals. I believe if my memory serves me right that they got the Moscow food stores intact. It was unrest in france that forced the retreat which started out OK but the weather closed in and the rest is history. I did read a rather good book about it many years ago, what realy killed of his army was the winter. If they had of left earlyer the bulk of them would have made it back. Saying that it was a while since I read it so I maybe a bit of with the detail.

 

[silversurfer]

According to Charles Joseph Minard a 19th century engineer they entered Moscow with 100,000 men and left with 100,000 men but crossed the Vienna river with only 10,000 remaining having previously left with 422,000

 

[Kenai]

Biggest mistake we and the yanks did was let Russia get to Moscow first

errrrrmmmm

 

[Inquisitor]

Well I can certainly see why they called it "unthinkable".

Seriously, has anyone in the history of mankind ever attacked Russia and come out better off?

Contrary to popular opinion, the German invasion of the USSR in World War 2 was a very close call.

 

[Davies_M]

Hitler invading Russia was due to the vast amounts of resources the country had. The German war machine was tiring out and needed more fuel for the fire to keep pounding at Western Europe. It was a must, plus the Russians were already gearing up for a war (Even though Germany did manage to catch them by suprise due to Stalin believing the attack plans were Western propaganda to bring the Soviet Union into the war)

As for America making tanks, that would mean either making tanks in the devestated Europe which they controled or making them in America. But the problem is transporting these beasty tanks to Europe without the Soviet Union becoming suspicious and endangering it's many sattelites (and their 51st state!)

As for the evil, America is no paragon of goodness. Just look at what it has become and how people will view it in the future.

The Cold War was a blessing in desguise in a few cases (technological advancements between two competeting super powers, much like business competition) but then again, do the advancements outweigh the scarring the both behemoths inflicted on the world with their proxy wars. If you ask me, it all seems to be biting back the U.S.A in the ass.

Churchill was quite a mess. He knew how to string the right sentence together, but was just a man at the right place at the right time. The rest of his political life was a bit of a mess. He deemed colonies as expendable and alledgedly called all non-westernized civilization as sub-human, although don't hold me to that. Will have to give google a run.

We are lucky this plan never came to fruitition. Imagine how things would have turned out...I'm not sure that we'd have Johns and Jennys, Comrade. Or maybe even absorbed into America, I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[Indy500]

Speaking of Finnish military personnel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim

I didn't realise he'd fought for the Imperial Russian military first...

 

[do_ron_ron]

It was not so much as living of the land but more a case of buying what they needed from the locals. I believe if my memory serves me right that they got the Moscow food stores intact. It was unrest in france that forced the retreat which started out OK but the weather closed in and the rest is history. I did read a rather good book about it many years ago, what realy killed of his army was the winter. If they had of left earlyer the bulk of them would have made it back. Saying that it was a while since I read it so I maybe a bit of with the detail.

The French usually did not pay for the food which was why they had problems in Spain. Wellington made sure that local supplies were paid for as he realised a angry population was counterproductive.

The weather did kill most but the lack of supplies leading to disease killed a lot. Leaving earlier would not have helped.

It took a lot to feed the Grande Armee. Having stripped the country on the way to Moscow there was nothing on the way back.

 

[Stretch]

A very interesting read. Thank you.

Invading and pacifying the Soviet Union would have been nigh on an impossibility, even with UK and US military strength.

Hitler's biggest mistake was invading the USSR despite early successes and getting to within a few miles of Moscow.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if he had not done this and what course the war might have taken ?

Has anyone read the novel Fatherland by Robert Harris where an alternate history is depicted ?

This is Europe in 1964 in the book.

Makes you wonder.

Instead we ended up with an almost identical map with all the German bits and more owned by the Soviet Union.

Makes you wonder.