Pairing 5.1 speakers with an Onkyo TX-NR363.

Associate
Joined
12 Jan 2008
Posts
2,116
Pairing 5.1 speakers with an Onkyo TX-NR636

I have just bought a new Onkyo TX-NR636 receiver which will allow me to dive into the world of 5.1 audio. The question I need answering though, is what speaker combination would be best for me?

My budget is around £500-600 for speakers and a sub.

My main uses will be movies and music, but mainly movies, and my room is roughly 5.5m x 4.0m. The floor to ceiling height is 2.4m, so the room is roughly 53 cubic meters.

I was thinking of wall mounting the speakers in each corner of the room, mainly for convenience - which I thought I would mention, as I read that speaker placement and whether or not there is room behind each speaker is important.

What do you guys recommend? :D
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
I'm guessing 363 is a typo and you've really got a 636. If so then you've invested somewhere around £450 in a receiver, and now plan to take the budget to a grand or more with the speakers. That's a pretty tidy wedge of cash in total. So you really need to know that if you go through with your plan to put the speakers in the corners then you'll be wasting an awful lot of the potential of the system.

Corners are bad places for most speakers. There are two main problems. One is that that sound bounces off the walls (and ceiling if mounted high) as well as coming directly to you from the speaker. That's like having three (or four) speakers placed closely together but all slightly out of time with each other. The result is that each proper speaker sounds vague and unfocussed because of the secondary reflected echoes. It's not as bad as the indistinct sound of announcements in say a railway station, but it's certainly not the effect you want in any sort of domestic audio system.

The second problem is space. With the speakers so far apart there's a gap or hole in the sound stage so you hear three distinct (but unfocussed) sources. It spoils the effect that should make you forget you're listening to speakers at all. There are speakers that are happy being mounted directly on a wall. But putting them in the corners of the room isn't where they're designed to go for all the reasons above.

A rough rule of thumb for speaker positions is the equilateral triangle. That's one where the length of each side is the same. If you imagine your seating position at one corner of the triangle, and the front -left and -right speakers at the two other corners, then the distance those speakers are apart is the same as the distance to each from where you sit. Once you have a roughed out position for the front L & R, then the centre speaker goes at the mid point between them. For good measure, the front three should all be at ear height but that's not always practical. The speakers can always be angled up or down to point at your listening position.

The surround speakers are often referred to as "rears" but that gives the wrong impression of where they should be placed. They don't go behind you but to the sides. They should be mounted on the side walls, about parallel or slightly back from parallel to the main listening position. Height-wise, these should be about 5ft (1.5m) from floor level. They'll be above head height when you are sitting down.

Okay, so that's dealt with speaker position and whether they can go on wall or not. Now lets deal with speaker choices.

The first thing everyone will suggest if you have the opportunity is to buy a sub from BK Electronics. The reason is simple. Pound for Pound they perform better than equivalent products from the major speaker manufacturers. They're all correct as well.... except when buying a better sub means taking some large compromises on the speakers in other areas. My guess is that for you, speaker positions away from the back walls is going to be an issue. You'd be better off with speakers that are suited to wall mounting. This is primarily for aesthetic reasons (position and physical speaker size), but now you're learning more about acoustics then you'd like your investment to sound good too. After all, it is a 'sound system', so shouldn't the sonic qualities be a priority.

Let's say for a moment that you ignore my advice and go for the entry-level BK sub. What would it be and what would the partnering speakers and accessories come to?...

BK Gemini II - £215 (inc signal cables) + delivery (£26) = £241

Remaining balance £259~£359 to buy centre, fronts, surrounds and speaker cable + brackets or stands.

Possible combos:

Tannoy Mercury VCi (centre) £105 + 2x pairs Tannoy Mercury V1 (2x £70/pr) - sub total £245 + cables (£60-£70) + wall brackets (£30) - Total £350

Mission MXC1 (centre) £100 + 2x pairs Mission MX1 (2x £90/pr) - sub total £280 + cables (£60-£70) + wall brackets (£30) - Total £385

Tannoy Revolution DC4 LCR (centre) £100 + 2x pairs Tannoy Revolution DC4 (2x £150/pr) - sub total £245 + cables (£60-£70) + wall brackets (£30) - Total £500

These aren't the only choices; there are products from Monitor Audio, Q Acoustics, Dali, Jamo, Wharfedale to name but a few. But I've already hit what I'd consider to be the main choices that come in to your budget range.


Now let's have a look at what I'd consider to be a perfect choice for you... It's the Monitor Audio MASS 5.1 system at £599 including the matching Monitor Audio sub. Monitor Audio has been (IMO) one of the leading speaker manufaturers making compact satellite speakers that still perform well for music as well as for movies. That takes some doing. It started with the Radius system that became the go-to product range for this sort of thing. However, that's an expensive solution for 5.1 at £1500 now. For some time MA have been looking for a way to emulate the success of Radius range but at a more accessible price. A couple of years ago they brought out the Vector series, but the styling was a bit challenging for many. The replacement is the MASS system, and I think they got it right. The satellites and centre are small enough to be discrete (224 x 128 x 128 mm) yet large enough to house some decent sized drivers that deliver for music. They look very smart too. The sub is good enough to shake your room when dinosaurs stomp about, but agile enough to follow the complex bass rhythms in music. You will need to buy speaker cable and wall brackets. The MA wall brackets are £15 each, but B-Tech makes the BT33 which are just £12 per pair and they'll easily hold the weight and (IMO) they're a better design too.
 
Last edited:
Associate
OP
Joined
12 Jan 2008
Posts
2,116
I'm guessing 363 is a typo and you've really got a 636. If so then you've invested somewhere around £450 in a receiver, and now plan to take the budget to a grand or more with the speakers. That's a pretty tidy wedge of cash in total. So you really need to know that if you go through with your plan to put the speakers in the corners then you'll be wasting an awful lot of the potential of the system.

Corners are bad places for most speakers. There are two main problems. One is that that sound bounces off the walls (and ceiling if mounted high) as well as coming directly to you from the speaker. That's like having three (or four) speakers placed closely together but all slightly out of time with each other. The result is that each proper speaker sounds vague and unfocussed because of the secondary reflected echoes. It's not as bad as the indistinct sound of announcements in say a railway station, but it's certainly not the effect you want in any sort of domestic audio system.

The second problem is space. With the speakers so far apart there's a gap or hole in the sound stage so you hear three distinct (but unfocussed) sources. It spoils the effect that should make you forget you're listening to speakers at all.

More to follow....

Thanks for the response. That's pretty in depth.

It's for my bedroom, so ideally the corners are best in terms of keeping things off the floor etc... it's a shame, but I need floor space :(
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Thanks for the response. That's pretty in depth.

It's for my bedroom, so ideally the corners are best in terms of keeping things off the floor etc... it's a shame, but I need floor space :(

You don't need to take up floor space. You can wall mount. Just don't wall mount in the corners. Go for wall mounting but away from the corners.
 
Associate
OP
Joined
12 Jan 2008
Posts
2,116
Thanks for the reply Lucid, that's really helpful.

Had a look the Monitor Audio Mass system and it definitely looks like the kind of thing I need, especially because of space restrictions etc.

My only question would be, because this is a '5.1 in a box' kind of system, a lot of AV forums frown upon that and recommend buying separate speakers, the best front your money can buy, and then upgrade each speaker as and when funds allow - does this change your recommendation?

Also, not sure what the implications are for having the same speaker as the surrounds for the centre with the Mass system. I'd have thought the centre speaker would have 3 separate tweeters, and/or be a different model/spec?
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Okay, some good questions. I'm going to deal with them in a slightly different order to how you asked...

Also, not sure what the implications are for having the same speaker as the surrounds for the centre with the Mass system. I'd have thought the centre speaker would have 3 separate tweeters, and/or be a different model/spec?

I'm not sure what your understanding is of speaker drivers or why you think the centre speaker would necessarily have to have three tweeters. This doesn't rule out a centre speaker design from having three tweeters of course, but it is very unusual. The centre speaker is producing sound for its own channel, and not for all three front channel speakers.

As for having the same or differing designs across the front three speakers (left, centre, right), the ideal configuration is three identical speakers. This even extends to all three speakers being oriented in the same way. Clearly though that has implications for practicality and aesthetics: A horizontal design is often the preferred choice for a centre speaker purely because it's a better fit with a TV screen. But that then has an impact on the sound. Just lying a speaker down like that will change the dispersion pattern and so also change the tone of the sound. So that's part of why you see centre speakers with a different design to the left and rights. If you also look at the content of the sound from the front three speakers, nearly all the dialogue comes from the centre, and it's providing upwards of 70% of the sound in the front 3 channels. The front L&R are mostly contributing effects, music and some panning effects. So the centre is the hardest working speaker. You'll often find that with smaller 5.1 speaker kits that the centre is the beefiest just because of how much work it does.

Where you'll see exceptions is in kits designed with LCR speakers. LCR stands for Left/Centre/Right. This is the same design speaker that can be oriented vertically or horizontally without changing the tone significantly. This has been done by a number of manufacturers - e.g. Tannoy (DC4 LCR), B&W, KEF, Monitor Audio, M&K, and other premium brands.

The Monitor Audio MASS system follows this LCR principle. So you're looking at a speaker system that follows the highest ideals of front channel design principles.

My only question would be, because this is a '5.1 in a box' kind of system, a lot of AV forums frown upon that and recommend buying separate speakers, the best front your money can buy, and then upgrade each speaker as and when funds allow - does this change your recommendation?
If you'd said you had no restrictions on where the speakers could be placed then yes, it would have changed my recommendation. I would have been talking about stand mount front speakers away from the front wall, and some wall mounted dipole surrounds. But that's not the case for you. You need wall mounted speakers, and while basic compact bookshelf speakers can certainly be wall mounted, there's very little mileage upgrading them to larger standmount speakers in the future if you're still expecting to have them wall mounted. So I stand by my recommendation of the MASS system both as an appropriate solution with your 636, and I think they're good enough should you decide to upgrade the amp in the future to something in the £1000 range.


In the end though this is all your choice. You might fall in love with some different speakers or change your mind about making space on the floor. It's up to you.
 
Associate
OP
Joined
12 Jan 2008
Posts
2,116
Okay, some good questions. I'm going to deal with them in a slightly different order to how you asked...



I'm not sure what your understanding is of speaker drivers or why you think the centre speaker would necessarily have to have three tweeters. This doesn't rule out a centre speaker design from having three tweeters of course, but it is very unusual. The centre speaker is producing sound for its own channel, and not for all three front channel speakers.

As for having the same or differing designs across the front three speakers (left, centre, right), the ideal configuration is three identical speakers. This even extends to all three speakers being oriented in the same way. Clearly though that has implications for practicality and aesthetics: A horizontal design is often the preferred choice for a centre speaker purely because it's a better fit with a TV screen. But that then has an impact on the sound. Just lying a speaker down like that will change the dispersion pattern and so also change the tone of the sound. So that's part of why you see centre speakers with a different design to the left and rights. If you also look at the content of the sound from the front three speakers, nearly all the dialogue comes from the centre, and it's providing upwards of 70% of the sound in the front 3 channels. The front L&R are mostly contributing effects, music and some panning effects. So the centre is the hardest working speaker. You'll often find that with smaller 5.1 speaker kits that the centre is the beefiest just because of how much work it does.

Where you'll see exceptions is in kits designed with LCR speakers. LCR stands for Left/Centre/Right. This is the same design speaker that can be oriented vertically or horizontally without changing the tone significantly. This has been done by a number of manufacturers - e.g. Tannoy (DC4 LCR), B&W, KEF, Monitor Audio, M&K, and other premium brands.

The Monitor Audio MASS system follows this LCR principle. So you're looking at a speaker system that follows the highest ideals of front channel design principles.

If you'd said you had no restrictions on where the speakers could be placed then yes, it would have changed my recommendation. I would have been talking about stand mount front speakers away from the front wall, and some wall mounted dipole surrounds. But that's not the case for you. You need wall mounted speakers, and while basic compact bookshelf speakers can certainly be wall mounted, there's very little mileage upgrading them to larger standmount speakers in the future if you're still expecting to have them wall mounted. So I stand by my recommendation of the MASS system both as an appropriate solution with your 636, and I think they're good enough should you decide to upgrade the amp in the future to something in the £1000 range.


In the end though this is all your choice. You might fall in love with some different speakers or change your mind about making space on the floor. It's up to you.

Thanks for that mate - clears a lot of things up.

Definitely considering buying the MA Mass from what you're saying. I have found the system minus the sub, new, for £399. Would you recommend buying the complete system including the Monitor Audio sub, or buying the 5.0 system and then a BK sub (XLS 200?) like you mentioned, separately?
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Thanks for that mate - clears a lot of things up.

Definitely considering buying it from what you're saying. I have found the system minus the sub, new, for £399. Would you recommend buying the complete system including the Monitor Audio sub, or buying the 5.0 system and then a BK sub (XLS 200?) like you mentioned previously, separately?

Anything is an upgrade than my current Logitech Z-5500 system!

The sub I mentioned was the Gemini II (£215 + postage). That one is the entry-level sub. It's the closest fit to your budget of £500-£600. The XLS200 must have been suggested to you from another forum. If you can afford the XLS200 then go for that one. It is more expensive though at £315 + postage, but has more power than the G2. If you go for that with the £399 MA satellites then it brings your total spend to around £850 inc cables and brackets.
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
If you want to stay with the Monitor Audio brand then Radius 45 is a good option. These are little cubes about about 10 x 10 x 12 cm, Keep your eye open for a secondhand pair on AVForums.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Sorry, I just skim read it off a mobile.

There's flat speaker cable in various cross sectional areas (CSA). I'd always recommend a minimum CSA of 1.5mm2. You'll find this at various online retailer websites. I supplied the same stuff to Dinzi when he was setting up. I use it in my installs where chasing isn't an option but surface trunking would look too obvious.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
That's on the right lines. The Fisual stuff is approx 16 AWG (American Wire Gauge). That's roughly the equivalent of a metric CSA of 1.3mm2. If you can find something that's closer to 15 AWG (1.65mm2) or 14 AWG (2.08mm2) then you'll deliver a little more power to the speakers because it's lower loss.
 
Back
Top Bottom