Parents (and anyone else with an opinion) - MMR: individually or not?

[cleanbluesky]

Ah but people get hysterical about the whole thing and end up deciding "I'm not giving Johhny any of that", ie vaccines in general.

Do they? Is there any reason to think this, such as someone actually doing it, or did it sound just like something you could say?

EDIT: Vent apparently heard something like this in a supermarket queue... forgive me if I dont think its representative

I haven't heard anyone here put forth the opinion that a child shouldn't have ANY jabs, and the only hysteria I have seen in this thread is against anyone who would dare question Current Medical Concensus (according to forum posters) that MMR is safe as safe.

Here is an interesting snippet article on research that was carried out by Autism Research Unit

The most compelling evidence to date of a link between MMR injections and
autism has been announced by scientists. Researchers working on two separate
studies have linked brain dysfunction to physical abnormalities which could
have been triggered by the multiple vaccine. The new evidence is based on
clinical tests rather than analysis of statistical information. Scientists
investigated the physical symptoms and were able to put samples rather than
numbers under the microscope.

The head of Britain's Autism Research Unit said the studies represented the
most important research into the condition ever carried out. Until now autism
has been seen as a purely mental disorder. One report from the Royal Free
Hospital in London has now found that many autistic children suffer from a
condition know as 'leaky gut syndrome,' a disease which damages the walls of
the intestine and is often found in children with autism, but is rare among
other children. Research suggests that these symptoms could be triggered by a
reaction to the MMR jab. Simon Murch, child specialist and the report's
author, believes the studies represent an important advance: 'We have shown
for the first time in a properly controlled study a clear link between gut
inflammation and brain damage.' A second study conducted in the US suggests
that vaccines can cause children's immune systems to go out of control. The
study investigated 35 autistic children and found 27 had abnormal immune
systems, with the abnormalities apparently triggered by vaccines or other
external factors.

Government officials treated the results with caution yesterday. David
Salisbury, head of vaccines at the Department of Health, said his advisors
had examined evidence from the Royal Free hospital and could not support
their findings: 'We have looked at this work and the conclusions are not
convincing,' he said.

Taking a very different approach and examining a possible mechanism rather than statistical measures.

Leaky Gut Syndrome and related
Some children with autism have responded well to dietary intervention such as eliminating gluten (a protein found in most grains) and casein (the protein found in milk) as well as phenyls and food coloring (see Feingold diet). Most data regarding the validity of these interventions have been the subjective observations of parents and caretakers and no scientific study with proper subject elimination has taken place. Possible determining factors regarding the effectiveness of this as a treatment involve coincidence of a combination of asthma, eczema, diarrhea and constipation, strange "yeasty" diaper rash, and uncharacteristic eating habits (eating an entire loaf of bread).

Several unproven theories behind the effectiveness of this as a treatment involve damage to the lining of the stomach and/or intestines allowing the proteins to be improperly metabolized as glutomorphine and casomorphine which are both opiates. The damage to the gut lining is theorized to be caused by immunio-abnormalities and possibly the incidence of early oral-antibiotic use combined with a genetic predisposition.

Studies conducted by British scientist Dr. Andrew Wakefield show a significant correlation between autism and the MMR vaccine. Wakefield found that the MMR vaccine increases the permeability of the bowel, causing "leaky gut syndrome." Toxin-laden fecal matter is then allowed to escape the digestive tract and enter the bloodstream. Once in the blood, the toxins travel to the brain where they damage sensitive brain tissues leading to the development of autism. Dr. Wakefield also found that autistic children develop inflamed bowel nodules causing indigestion and liver damage from toxic overload. 8 His findings have been corroborated by Irish molecular biologist John O'Leary , who found measles virus in the gut of 96% of vaccinated autistic children and in 75% of children with Crohn's Disease

8. Testimony by Dr. Andrew Wakefield before the Government Reform Committee Hearing on Vaccines and Autism, April 6, 2000, Chairman: Representative Dan Burton. See also: "Top UK Doctor Ties 170 cases of Autism to MMR Baby Vaccine," London Telegraph, 1-21-01

9. Testimony by John O'Leary, PhD, Coomb's Women's Hospital in Dublin, before the Government Reform Committee Hearing on Vaccines and Autism, April 6, 2000, Chairman: Representative Dan Burton.

In 2001, Congressman Dan Burton (R-Indiana) held congressional hearings on the connection between childhood vaccines and America's raging autism epidemic. After hearing the testimony of many experts, Rep. Burton accused U.S health agencies of suppressing evidence linking the MMR vaccine to autism. Burton's committee found that the majority of officials who set vaccine policy for the Institute of Medicine have financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry—a situation that presents a serious conflict of interest.

 

[Takhisis]

Hmm, I didn't think people could be that stupid.

Jhadur didn't have any vaccinations as a kid because his mum is scared of needles

On the other hand I had absolutely everything that was going - I was a child pincushion...perhaps I should have realised then that my mother didn't like me... "Jab her...Jab her again *evil cackle*

 

[kitten_caboodle]

Do they? Is there any reason to think this, such as someone actually doing it, or did it sound just like something you could say?

EDIT: Vent apparently heard something like this in a supermarket queue... forgive me if I dont think its representative
.

It seems that it seems you are giving some sections of society more credit for their intelligence than you should. There are people who don't understand any of the ins and outs - they hear what they hear on TV and read what they read in the crappy tabloids and that to them is the word of the law. They base their opinion on one sided biased facts, be that whether they should or shouldn't get the MMR. I've no problem with people who research it and decide either way - at the end of the day it's their choice, but it is a fact that there are some 'not very clever'*people out there that have kids and don't really have a clue whether they are doing the right thing or not - they just follow with a herd mentality. When people don't understand they often react with fear, and confuse the single injections with the combined MMR, hence some dont get their children immunised at all.

*not meaning to be offensive, can't think how else to put it

 

[cleanbluesky]

<snip>

I didn't say there weren't stupid people, I just dont think that all the stupid people neccessarily have the opinion that MMR is bad - given the amount that seem self-righteously confident that MMR is wunderbar

 

[Blackstar]

Jhadur didn't have any vaccinations as a kid because his mum is scared of needles

On the other hand I had absolutely everything that was going - I was a child pincushion...perhaps I should have realised then that my mother didn't like me... "Jab her...Jab her again *evil cackle*

My mums like your mum. The only time i missed a jab was my bcg because i had the flu and wasn't at school so i got it the next year.
My little sister and i got mmr my older sister had a reaction and didn't get it she has a very high immune system, she got two of the vaccines when she started work at a hospital it turned out she was allergic to the measles vaccine.
Parents don't seem to realise how bad these illnesses are for their children. When i have kids they will get mmr, no doubt about it.

 

[weeble]

Those sample groups used in the research are very small to be statistically valid (I used 250 in my dissertation and found it to be too small, but still did provide an idea).

The public hysteria has lead to an decrease in the uptakes of vaccines, and the results are already emerging. To NOT have your child is ludicrous (unless medically allergic, high immune system etc) as is selfish on an individual level exposing your child to repercusions (sp?) and to the society by allowing carrier's to wonder freely spreading....

 

[rabanthor]

just posting some links with sound research and actual evidence, unlike the articles posted above. Do you have the links to the research the articles quote, CBS?

http://www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/library/research.php
http://www.kerslandhouse.co.uk/mmr_vaccination.htm
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-mmr.htm

Sadly, there will be some who persist with the nonsense about mmr despite the evidence.

edit- and since one of the above articles discussed conflicts of interest...
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/lancet-feb2004.htm

 

[Pebbles]

All mine had it, during the worst of the scares too. As far as I remember from when I worked at NHSD all the uproar was totally disproved and the minister that championed it apologised....that aside all the nurses I worked with were advocates of the mmr too.

 

[cleanbluesky]

just posting some links with sound research and actual evidence, unlike the articles posted above. Do you have the links to the research the articles quote, CBS?

http://www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/library/research.php
http://www.kerslandhouse.co.uk/mmr_vaccination.htm
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-mmr.htm

Sadly, there will be some who persist with the nonsense about mmr despite the evidence.

edit- and since one of the above articles discussed conflicts of interest...
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/lancet-feb2004.htm

NHS add a 'mmrthefacts' subdomain and I'm supposed to ignore any other possibilities - your links aren't telling me anything that I wasn't already aware of - but as you'll notice in my post previous there is more to it than simple population studies, the Autism Research Unit seem to think there is cause for concern, although they haven't used a sub-domain to express this...

The references were given, you can look up the links for yourself if you wish and here is a list of research carried out by the Autism Research Unit.

Altogether I think I provide a convincing argument for anyone to think very carefully about whether or not to take MMR or pay for the three seperate jabs.

 

[Pebbles]

NHS add a 'mmrthefacts' subdomain and I'm supposed to ignore any other possibilities - your links aren't telling me anything that I wasn't already aware of - but as you'll notice in my post previous there is more to it than simple population studies, the Autism Research Unit seem to think there is cause for concern, although they haven't used a sub-domain to express this...

The references were given, you can look up the links for yourself if you wish and here is a list of research carried out by the Autism Research Unit.

Altogether I think I provide a convincing argument for anyone to think very carefully about whether or not to take MMR or pay for the three seperate jabs.

CBS, I've only given that website a quick glance but the articles relating to the vacciantion appear to be totally outdated.

 

[rabanthor]

Well CBS you may think you provide a decent argument but you dont. We'll have to disagree on this one. Other readers can look at the links we posted and come to their own conclusions.

 

[malfunkshun]

Well, I have 4 kids and they have all be vaccinated with the MMR jabs.

 

[Rich_L]

To be fair, I heard Holland & Barrett do a good line in MMR vaccinations, totally safe as well because they don't even need a regulatory body to test for efficacy or safety! Just pop a few herbal tablets and you're safe as anything.

The references were given, you can look up the links for yourself if you wish and here is a list of research carried out by the Autism Research Unit.

Interesting how you disparage the NHS yet treat the Autism Research Unit as gospel.

Hmm let's think now, if there was no link between MMR and autism...wouldn't that lead to a bit of a funding cut for the 'Autism Research Unit'? Some leading evidence of a link = more funding = more jobs = happy days! Arguably the self-interest there is as much if not more as in the 'medical institution'.

No doubt if it was the NHS saying it was unsafe and a random website saying it was safe there'd be folks liniing up to criticise the NHS or commonly accepted medical knowledge, for no other reason than they feel excluded or don't understand 'medicine' and so feel it's easier to distrust than take something on face value.

Needless to say if/when kids come along they'll be getting the MMR.

 

[Pebbles]

And interestingly, the Autism website links to the NHS site.

 

[cleanbluesky]

CBS, I've only given that website a quick glance but the articles relating to the vacciantion appear to be totally outdated.

I didn't realise that research has an expiration date...

 

[cleanbluesky]

Well CBS you may think you provide a decent argument but you dont.

You may think that was a sentance, but it wasn't.

We'll have to disagree on this one. Other readers can look at the links we posted and come to their own conclusions.

Please, you say it as if you dont care - whereas you adopt this attitude becasue a mixture of smugness and self-righteousness is all you have left...

The reason that I have won this argument is that I propose that there is no authoritative truth, whereas you do not seem content with the truth - your solace is merely to be publicly seen upholding the 'accepted' discourse.

 

[cleanbluesky]

<snip>

So far this has been the only post in this thread that has disappointed me, if only because you used sarcasm without addressing any issue - which is not what I expected of you, you are usually so concise.

 

[rabanthor]

Thanks for the unpleasant and unnecessary personal attacks CBS. I think this tells me all I need to know about you. I dont want to argue the point with you, but it angers me to see someone posting such unadulterated nonsense that could actually lead to real life harm. I have argued long and hard with many parents about mmr, enough times to know that people like yourself cant be reasoned with. Anyone else reading this thread should read the facts for themselves. If they do, they will come to the correct decision.

 

[Phog]

I didn't realise that research has an expiration date...

Yes it does; when some new research comes around which disproves the old stuff.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Thanks for the unpleasant and unnecessary personal attacks CBS. I think this tells me all I need to know about you. I dont want to argue the point with you, but it angers me to see someone posting such unadulterated nonsense that could actually lead to real life harm. I have argued long and hard with many parents about mmr, enough times to know that people like yourself cant be reasoned with. Anyone else reading this thread should read the facts for themselves. If they do, they will come to the correct decision.

What is 'the correct decision'? You have yet to explain how one piece of research is any more authoritative than the other - to me it seems you have taken the opinion that institution has offered without question.

Unless I am mistaken and you have actually read up on these (beyond posting a few links) and can explain exactly why it is safe and why researchers have been mistaken into believing that there is a link, you also wish to include an analysis of leaky gut theory and the curious findings in that area...

EDIT: If you genuinely find me offensive then I apologise, however I am sure you can understand the contention caused by merely telling someone they "are wrong" without providing any reasoning for this. You may also like to find that anyone taking a minority position such as myself has to adopt this technique given the amount of people who think that just because everyone else believes something similar, no proof or reasoning is required.