Parents - changes coming to government childcare contributions

Associate
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27 Aug 2004
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Surrey
Thats about the same here, and the same amount of vouchers that the mrs and I save. I don't understand how they calculate the figures, as the mrs puts 243 away and I 124, so that comes to 4404 each year that we save in child vouchers. The new scheme, you can only get 2000 per child, so thats 4k in total, yet we save more than that in vouchers that we get back, so not sure how it came back with...

Tax-Free Childcare
£2,294 a year

Childcare vouchers

£1,558 a year

The £1,558 is the amount you gained from sacrificing your salary for the vouchers. Roughly 32% on £243x12 plus 42% on £124x12 by not paying tax and national insurance on the sacrificed salary. On the new scheme you pay get £4K in top ups but you lose the savings in income tax and NI. So roughly £4k less the £1,558.
 
Man of Honour
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When I looked into it a while back we were better off sticking with vouchers, the new scheme only seemed worth it if you had fairly high childcare costs or both parents in high tax bracket because in order to get the full whack on the new scheme you'd need childcare bills of 10k+ a year, and with the 570/1140h provision for 3-4 year olds I can't see that happening for us.

E.g. say after free childcare provision you are paying £600/month, that's £7200/year so you'd be talking £5760 out of your own pocket meaning only £1440 coming from the government. As per above calcs that's less saving than a couple claiming £124+£243 in vouchers.
 
Caporegime
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Many thanks for contributing towards the system that funds my three children in school and nursery, I do appreciate it.

I'm actually a net recipient, so all the system is doing is giving your children worse schooling.

You still haven't said how they should instead be funded.

Privately is one option, with those who can't afford to pay being subsidised by the government. The current system just makes no sense, taxing people and then giving them the money back again, that wastes a load of money in administration.
 
Caporegime
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The current system just makes no sense, taxing people and then giving them the money back again, that wastes a load of money in administration.
You really don't seem to have a good grasp of the principles of an effective taxation system.

Firstly, one fundamental tactic of a successful tax system is to collect as much as you can in the first instance then control cash outflows directly, rather than reducing tax collected in the first place. Collecting less in the first instance is exactly what you avoid, especially with school funding, as asking people to pay themselves rather than through taxation will encourage the wrong behaviours (fewer people bothering).

Secondly, there are literally hundreds of examples of things that are collected via taxation and subsequently refunded. Are you saying these should all be abolished due to the 'administration burden'?

Thirdly, unless your proposal creates PAYE process efficiencies, you're not generating any administration savings by doing that. Reducing tax collected by a small amount doesn't reduce the cost of collecting the rest of the tax; there's no incremental cost to collecting primary school taxes as PAYE is taken by income bandings.

So you've successfully introduced a complex and expensive school subsidy system, reduced school attendance, and made absolutely zero efficiencies in doing so. Forgive me if I don't nominate you for chancellor any time soon! :D
 
Don
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Wargrave, UK
Looks like we'll be £133 per year better off on the new scheme.
I tell you what though, those 30 hours are really going to help in September. We get the 15 hours now and that made a big difference. £1300 / month (before the 15 hours) in childcare is painful and makes it the single most expensive thing we pay for.
 
Soldato
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Birmingham
Cut disability benefits for people who can't work and give money to people who can work and already earn a decent income. Got it.

I take it your suggestion would be to make childcare prohibitively expensive so people can't afford to work; therefore paying no tax at all and in many cases actually reducing the net tax amount?

Not to mention the knock-on effect of childcare providers income being reduced, meaning a) they pay less tax, and b) need to employ less staff, reducing the number of jobs available.

With one child, we just about break even at the moment with my GF working; after paying for childcare, her train ticket, lunches at work, etc. and all the other costs which come with working, we're left with £1-200 "extra"/month (we were actually losing money up until last September when he started school).

If it wasn't for the ~£100 saving we each get through childcare vouchers (which incidentally is a lot less than we pay in tax), then it simply wouldn't be worthwhile her working (and a lot less hassle!).
 
Soldato
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Cut disability benefits for people who can't work and give money to people who can work and already earn a decent income. Got it.
I don't think there's much wrong with a tax rebate for parents, particularly for childcare (but also the fomerly-universal Child Benefit). These are our future taxpayers, and keeping them in somewhat comfortable households correlates with their future productivity (that is to say that those brought up in poverty provide lower payback in their working life), as well as, in effect, taxing non-parents more (since they are not currently raising our future taxpayers).

We shouldn't be cutting disability benefits. But let's not raise our voices for that by calling for more cuts to others - cuts beget cuts. Disability benefit reductions are only going to see more support when other areas also get cut.
 
Soldato
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I've only paid one month into vouchers so far and am switching to TFC next month. Only slightly better off over the year but feel it's worth it as things are tight currently. £1k per month childcare is no joke.
 
Soldato
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Length post is length, apologies.

Just a bit of background before I jump in on some of the comments that have been made.

The government funded “free” childcare is very much a misguided scheme which the government are pushing with poor information being given to parents about what how it actually works, what is and isn’t permitted and who has to offer it and who doesn’t.

Firstly no child care provider is forced to offer funded spaces. They do so of their own choice. Many believe that not offering funded hours would be bad for business, however this is where a lack of information about how the scheme works, leads to a lack of understanding why some providers won’t offer the funded hours at all.

The government pay the local authorities (LA’s), the LA then determine the hourly rate they will pay the child care provider. For example a child care provider chargers £5 per hour normally, that providers LA only funds £4 per hour, according to the guidelines of the scheme, top ups for the specific hour are not permitted so now the child care provider is making a £1 loss on the funded hours. If the child care provider minds 3 children per day all using their 15 hours “free” funding they are at a loss of £45 per week by accepting the scheme or £180 per month. In an already lower end paying profession that’s quite a hit.

Top up fees are not allowed, but fees for additional elements of care are. IE lunch fee, snack fee, activity fees, and this is fully acceptable! Why should anyone have to take a pay cut because the government said so? The element that is free to parents is the care of the child, this is where the government have royally screwed up with the whole scheme and been very misleading with it. It should be “Funded” hours, not “Free” hours.

Acceptance of the scheme by the childcare provider is not mandatory, the government cannot enforce a pay cut on child care providers just because they are falsely pushing a misguided scheme.

The funded hours schemes are not limited to Nurseries, child minders are also able to offer the funded hours spots.

Now to address some comments.

My assumption would be that those not offering it can expect a mass exodus and to go out of business .

Your assumption would be incorrect. Just because a provider doesn’t sign up to a scheme does not mean that they are going to lose business on mass. If you think the scheme is complicated for the parents, then think how complicated it is for the child care provider.

With this happening the number of child care spots country wide is actually reducing because of this scheme! There is already a shortage of child care in many areas.

As an aside the “Free scheme” and looming increase to 30 hours is actually pushing child care providers to just give up entirely purely because of how difficult it is for them to try and manage, explain to parents, and workout how they can recuperate the loss of income that the scheme is generating.

As the others have said, nurseries can't charge a top for the difference between their normal hourly rate and the funded rate. So for say 25 hours, you just get 15 free and then pay the normal hourly rate for the other 10

15 hours free is 15 hours free regardless of whether the nursery charge £5 or £50 per hour, obviously if you want say 20 hours then you'd have to pay for the 5 hours on top.
By not allowing topups, ci_newman means the nursery aren't allowed to charge you any shortfall between what those 15 hours would cost and what the govt. actually pay them

What you will find is the child care providers who do offer the funded hours will be very smart about they way they address the shortfall that the funded hours create, and so they should be. Top ups on the direct fee are not allowed, but limitation of times that funded hours can be used, along with wrap around hours, lunch fees, and activity charges are to be expected. 15 hours free should not go hand in hand with “child care provider should be out of pocket”. This is exactly why it should be “funded” not “free” in how it is being advertised by the government.

What I don't understand here is, that the child care provider needs to sign up to the scheme. This is my issue. At the moment, our eldest has turned 3 and the 15 free hours (which is only applicable to certain hours of the day) is due to kick in at the change of term time (April). Now the provider is at the moment, trying to figure out if they should move to the new number of hours or not. At this point, my child is settled and has established a good friend base, so pulling her out of that proivder to another, is a no go.

Headline token policy.

You may not have had the information I have laid out above when making your comment, so hopefully my information goes some way to helping you understand exactly why a child care provider might not sign up to the scheme at all. Would you sign up to a pay cut?


Any questions then fire them over. I am quite aware of the scheme, its purpose, its impact on the child care industry, and how poorly it is being managed by the government at the detriment to many child care providers reputations purely over the poor use of the word “free”.
 
Caporegime
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If it's as bad for the poor oppressed childcare organisations as Syla5 suggests, why do any offer the funding mechanism at all?

Surely all these awfully hard done by childcare providers would collude to opt out of the funding scheme and carry on depriving their customers of subsidies, letting the market sort the rest out?

The answer is that some are charging too much, and they don't like being called out on it. Besides which, there are loads of ways round it (as Syla5 explains) for those that can be bothered, though Syla5 also paints them as an awfully lazy lot...
 
Soldato
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Birmingham

Some good points, but ultimately is it not down to the childcare providers to negotiate a better deal from the government, rather than using sneaky tactics/costing practices against the parents?

Why do any childcare providers offer the scheme if it's "losing them money"? Or is it simply the case that they're getting paid less than they would be if all the parents were paying the full fees which they wouldn't be be able to afford anyway, and so getting paid something by the government is better than getting paid nothing by parents who can't afford it?
 
Soldato
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Some good points, but ultimately is it not down to the childcare providers to negotiate a better deal from the government, rather than using sneaky tactics/costing practices against the parents?

Heh, it doesn't work like that. Central Govt give local govt the budget, they then divide it down to a basic hourly funded rate + supplements. This year has been the first rise in the funding rate in 6 years and is fixed now until at least 2020. The local councils have been in discussion with the sector to get feedback for the last 6 months on how to slice the pie....but nothing the sector can do to make the pie bigger. And it's all down to each council how it's divided, so different counties give different funding rates. And the nurseries are not using sneaky tactics etc to fund shortfalls, they are being told to do it by the councils....its has to be paid or the nursery won't be there. And it's only going to get worse in the next 4 years with the rise of the NLW, due to early years education being a poorly paid career. They should get paid more, but fees are going to soar to cover it, because there is no where else to get the money other than parents.

Why do any childcare providers offer the scheme if it's "losing them money"?

I don't know, i've never asked that question! The funding rate used to be higher than the hourly rate for a lot of places 6 years ago, so it was beneficial, but the freeze in funding with ever increasing wage costs has led to the difficulty now, and 30 hours will exascerbate it. The rise this year in funding is welcome (but it's the same review in the single funding formula that has led to a cut in funding for schools and their current complaints in the news), but it's nowhere near enough to cover costs until 2020

Or is it simply the case that they're getting paid less than they would be if all the parents were paying the full fees which they wouldn't be be able to afford anyway, and so getting paid something by the government is better than getting paid nothing by parents who can't afford it?

Universal funded 15 hrs only starts at 3, so they've been paying full fees up to that point.
 
Soldato
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9,140
I'm interested to know how much the nursery my daughter goes to gets paid for the free hours. She's in the sane boat with her free hours kicking in after Easter, her bills will practically half as she only goes 3 days. It would be good if the 30 hours covers all of those days but if not I'm not going to complain, any amount of reduction in childcare is good in my eyes better than a slap in the face. Our nursery is one of the more expensive (for the area) at 43 quid a day so maybe they will be able to swallow the cost more.
 
Man of Honour
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Falling...
I really ought to look into vouchers and such like. Just assumed we weren't eligible for anything owing to income and only 1 child. It's one thing health visitors and nct don't really explain.
 
Soldato
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I'm interested to know how much the nursery my daughter goes to gets paid for the free hours. She's in the sane boat with her free hours kicking in after Easter, her bills will practically half as she only goes 3 days. It would be good if the 30 hours covers all of those days but if not I'm not going to complain, any amount of reduction in childcare is good in my eyes better than a slap in the face. Our nursery is one of the more expensive (for the area) at 43 quid a day so maybe they will be able to swallow the cost more.
It depends on their ofcom rating, but it can be anywhere between £4 to £6 for good and outstanding nurseries. Funded hours are crippling for nurseries.
 
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