Peace in the middle east?

theleg · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:23

Stretch said:
Errm, is that a genuine question?

Yes...

Palestine was just another province of the Ottoman empire for like 500 years previous to the establishment of Israel. Before that it was part of Syria, before that it was run by the crusaders, before that it was run by the muslim invaders from arabia.

So please tell me...When did Palestine exist as its own country?

Stretch · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:32

Balddog said:
Yes...

Palestine was just another province of the Ottoman empire for like 500 years previous to the establishment of Israel. Before that it was part of Syria, before that it was run by the crusaders, before that it was run by the muslim invaders from arabia.

So please tell me...When did Palestine exist as its own country?

Secondly I don't think the Arabs wish to see genocide. They just don't want to see them settle in what was their country and declare it as their own. Which is after all invasion by the back door. Something that was supposedly made illegal by international law after the Second World War.

Where in that paragraph have I mentioned Palestine. I'm fully aware of the history in the Middle East.

theleg · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:36

Stretch said:
Where in that paragraph have I mentioned Palestine. I'm fully aware of the history in the Middle East.

You said they didnt want the Israelis settling in their country. It was implied that you were talking about Palestine seeing as the only arab country is Saudi Arabia :dunno: . Given the context of the thread and the post you were replying to.

Besides, in case you missed it...the Ottomans were not arabs. So my point stands.

Stretch · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:43

Balddog said:
You said they didnt want the Israelis settling in their country. It was implied that you were talking about Palestine seeing as the only arab country is Saudi Arabia :dunno: . Given the context of the thread and the post you were replying to.

Besides, in case you missed it...the Ottomans were not arabs. So my point stands.

There's a difference between Arabia, and Arabs. I think you'll find many of the ottomans were Arabs along with people in North Africa and beyond.

@if ®afiq · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:46

cleanbluesky said:
Are you contesting Al-Hesseini's involvement with the Nazis? If so, please provide a link at least... also, Palestinian involvement with Nazis is a historical matter can be referenced by more than a single web-page...

No I'm not, but his involvement was not, I doubt, any greater than that of many Western governments at that time or even greater than some Jewish lobbys. From what I recall from reading, I think it was Understanding Power, that a Jewish group lobbied the US Senate to postpone investigations into rumours of the Holocaust (this was before the discovery of the camps). There were many guilty parties, and not all of them fit into the "enemy" category!

CBS said:
So they are immigrants depending on their intention? I thought an immigrant was someone who came from another country to live, since when was intention a factor? Also, I think most Jews were motivated by the possibility they may end up in gas chambers should they not flee.

Once again I think you are just playing with words. How would you feel if I came from another country to take over your land and make you a second class citizen?

theleg · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:49

Stretch said:
There's a difference between Arabia, and Arabs. I think you'll find many of the ottomans were Arabs along with people in North Africa and beyond.

No, they werent...Their empire included arab people but the people who ruled it were Turks...It was not an arab empire...Thats like saying the British empire was arab because they also ruled over Palestine and various other arab places.

theleg · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:51

@if ®afiq said:
Once again I think you are just playing with words. How would you feel if I came from another country to take over your land and make you a second class citizen?

Do you think the original jewish refugees intended to make arabs second class citizens?

cleanbluesky · 29 Mar 2006 at 11:57

@if ®afiq said:
No I'm not, but his involvement was not, I doubt, any greater than that of many Western governments at that time or even greater than some Jewish lobbys. From what I recall from reading, I think it was Understanding Power, that a Jewish group lobbied the US Senate to postpone investigations into rumours of the Holocaust (this was before the discovery of the camps). There were many guilty parties, and not all of them fit into the "enemy" category!

My point

1) The Palestinian Mufti contributed for the reason for Jews to emigrate en mass from Germany, yet Palestinians now blame jews for this act

2) Can you find a Jewish organisation that recruited for the Nazis in the same way that Al-Husseyni did?

Once again I think you are just playing with words. How would you feel if I came from another country to take over your land and make you a second class citizen?

Is that not the behaviour of every immigrant? Do you think each and every Israeli came with the sole purpose of creating a state, or do you think that they were forced out of their home? Is the situation not comparable to any sizeable immigrant minority group? What is the difference?

And as far as playing with words is concerned are we not BOTH doing that, is it not the case that you wish to deny describing Israeli immigrants as such because it would be harder for you to show a continued lack of empaty to them and blame them for all the ills of the region?

Stretch · 29 Mar 2006 at 12:02

Balddog said:
No, they werent...Their empire included arab people but the people who ruled it were Turks...It was not an arab empire...Thats like saying the British empire was arab because they also ruled over Palestine and various other arab places.

Well, you've said it your self. These places are Arab places not Jewish.

because they also ruled over Palestine and various other arab places

The area which is now Palestine belongs to the Arabs

theleg · 29 Mar 2006 at 12:05

Stretch said:
Well, you've said it your self. These places are Arab places not Jewish.

Lower case arab mate ^^ as in arab people but not Arab states.

Youve still yet to tell me the last time arabs ruled palestine as a state

theleg · 29 Mar 2006 at 12:07

Stretch said:
The area which is now Palestine belongs to the Arabs

Didnt catch the edit in time

I dont understand this...It belongs to the arabs now? Well yes it does, but the issue is greater Palestine is it not? Greater Palestine which includes the land currently known as Israel...Which doesnt belong to the arabs.

Besides, it doesnt belong to the arabs...It belongs to the Palestinians..This idea that Arabs are some kind of unified group is hilarious...Its akin to saying all white people are the same.

@if ®afiq · 29 Mar 2006 at 12:09

Balddog said:
Do you think the original jewish refugees intended to make arabs second class citizens?

That's an interesting one. There is ample evidence that show's the initial influx did not want their own state, but it was in fact the Zionist agenda that "forced" the state of Israel onto the Arabs and the Jews.

So no, I don't think it was the average Jews intention, however the path they chose made this inevitable.

Gedalia_w · 29 Mar 2006 at 12:11

The fact is that "Palestine" hasn’t been an independent state since the Jews were expelled by the Romans. It has just been a piece of land taken over by one empire after another.

@if ®afiq · 29 Mar 2006 at 12:32

cleanbluesky said:
My point

1) The Palestinian Mufti contributed for the reason for Jews to emigrate en mass from Germany, yet Palestinians now blame jews for this act

2) Can you find a Jewish organisation that recruited for the Nazis in the same way that Al-Husseyni did?

The point that I was talking about, I will have to look for that reference again. However, from what I understand, the Jewish Police and the Jewish Councils helped to recruit for the Nazis.

CBS said:
Is that not the behaviour of every immigrant? Do you think each and every Israeli came with the sole purpose of creating a state, or do you think that they were forced out of their home? Is the situation not comparable to any sizeable immigrant minority group? What is the difference?

No it is not. There is immigration and their is occupation. What we have is occupation, that is immigration that was not welcomed and indeed forced onto those that were there before.

As to whether I think that was their intention - see the post above. Also your point about forced migration is also true, although I suspect you only have the crazy Arabs in mind for this.

CBS said:
And as far as playing with words is concerned are we not BOTH doing that, is it not the case that you wish to deny describing Israeli immigrants as such because it would be harder for you to show a continued lack of empaty to them and blame them for all the ills of the region?

I don't play with words and I don't try and trick people but twisting things. I have never blamed the Jews for all the ills nor do I hate all Jews.

cleanbluesky · 29 Mar 2006 at 13:14

@if ®afiq said:
The point that I was talking about, I will have to look for that reference again. However, from what I understand, the Jewish Police and the Jewish Councils helped to recruit for the Nazis.

No it is not. There is immigration and their is occupation. What we have is occupation, that is immigration that was not welcomed and indeed forced onto those that were there before.

Click to expand...

And how does 'occupation' start? Is it not the case that jews wished to organise a state, which became Israel and decades down the line the rest of the people of Palestine have failed to achieve this...

Is it not a case that one people of the Palestinian region have achieved a state yet the other have not?

I don't play with words and I don't try and trick people but twisting things. I have never blamed the Jews for all the ills nor do I hate all Jews.

Click to expand...

We all play with words whether we are trying to be decietful with our wordplay or not... I dont think you are actively twisting things - I think that there is no difference between what I call immigration and you call occupation. I said ills of the region and I said Israeli immigrants not jews, as in Israel and Palestine and if it is not the case that you do not blame jews solely for the problems of the region then you are very silent or reluctant to talk about anyone else (apart from America) who contribute to the problems of the region. Perhaps this thread would be a nice place to tell us who else is responsible for the problems in the region. As far as hating all Jew is concerned, that is a denial for something I have not accused.

lemonkettaz · 29 Mar 2006 at 13:17

if there was no israel.. if it had been taken over by the arabs then the next target would be western europe.

there will be no peace while there are different cultures in the world. at the end of the day its just human instinct.

even if germany had taken over the world.. factions would break off and fight the ruler until they got total domination.. and then it would happen all over again.