Poll: Premier League Shake-Up?

[BaZ87]

I can never see the spending being toned down tbh and it sounds like the English sides are pushing for this league more than anyone. Bigger and better squads will be needed and transfer fees will only go one way in the coming years. My post was half joking but when you consider the amount they've spent on defenders alone since Pep came in, I can see a club breaching 400mil in 2 transfer windows before 2025, if this league goes ahead.

I couldn't disagree more on both the spending point and who is most in favour of this League. As I touched on, when UEFA started talking about financial controls they were concerned about clubs being in debt - the big clubs didn't care about this, they were more concerned with another PSG or City coming along and that's why FFP was rewritten to limit what clubs could spend, not how much debt they could get in. If these same clubs are now looking to form this League, you can be sure that they'll do all they can to handicap the City's of this world or at least prevent another City.

And on the point of who is most in favour of this League and or an expanded CL, go look back at reports on these things for the last 10 years and it's Real and Juve. Of course the big PL sides are interested and will happily use this League as a gun to hold to the PL and UEFA's head in negotiations but it's Juve and Real in particular that are the biggest backers, to the point in which they have formally proposed these ideas or publicly endorsed them. Juve are the driving force behind the planned reformat of the CL and Perez already talked up this FIFA League over a year ago.

This news/threat is more for the benefit of UEFA than the PL. More European football is coming, it's just a case of whether the big boys will be playing it under the UEFA name or FIFA's and I'd suspect this is the big boys telling UEFA to give them more money from the expanded CL or we're off to join FIFA.

 

[Ayahuasca]

I guess we'll find out if/when it goes ahead how it will affect spending and if rules are enforced. It's all speculation so far but the prize money for the winners is said to be in the hundreds of millions. How much do you get for winning the CL once you factor everything in?

If Juve really are the driving force behind it then anything can happen.

 

[BaZ87]

I guess we'll find out if/when it goes ahead how it will affect spending and if rules are enforced. It's all speculation so far but the prize money for the winners is said to be in the hundreds of millions. How much do you get for winning the CL?

If Juve really are the driving force behind it then anything can happen.

Andrea Agnelli discussing reform in the CL a year ago here: https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/pre...m-juventus-chairman/q9cal5oa7odw196rsnsulu6kk
Florentino Pérez pushing the FIFA League idea 10 months ago here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/sports/real-madrid-fifa-european-super-league.html

And my mate Tariq summing up their reasons why here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1318558344831995910

He obviously reads my posts

Whoever wins La Liga, assuming it's Barca or Real, earn around the same as the side finishing 6-8th in the PL with 3rd place Atletico earning about the same as the 20th placed PL side. In Italy it's even worse with Juve winning the League but earning around 10% less than the 20th placed PL side. Pre covid the PL had already negotiated one of it's overseas deals for some scandinavian countries with another massive increase. The biggest sides in Europe need more European money to counter the threat of the PL's ever increasing revenue. A bigger CL with more games between the bigger sides will absolutely happen, a new FIFA League only becomes a possibility if Real et al can convince the big PL sides to join them and UEFA don't give more money/security to the bigger sides.

 

[FMF]

Whoever wins La Liga, assuming it's Barca or Real, earn around the same as the side finishing 6-8th in the PL with 3rd place Atletico earning about the same as the 20th placed PL side. In Italy it's even worse with Juve winning the League but earning around 10% less than the 20th placed PL side. Pre.

This is their own fault for individually negotiating their own TV deals to the detriment of their leagues and competition as a whole, the irony, want all the cash to themselves yet moan that the competition isn't sufficient in their own league to generate revenue.

The EPL and the money that comes with it is a result of the competitive nature of the league.

 

[BaZ87]

This is their own fault for individually negotiating their own TV deals to the detriment of their leagues and competition as a whole, the irony, want all the cash to themselves yet moan that the competition isn't sufficient in their own league to generate revenue.

The EPL and the money that comes with it is a result of the competitive nature of the league.

Serie A do not sell the rights individually (nor the Bundesliga or Ligue 1) and La Liga hasn't for years. The PL has distributed TV money more evenly than these other Leagues however the biggest reason for the growth of the PL is from overseas revenue.

If you ask a people what's the biggest game in Europe most would say Real - Barca however if you look at viewing figures it's not close. The PL have always been one step ahead of other European Leagues. At the start of the PL they were giving overseas tv rights away for nothing because they wanted to build up loyal viewers that they could leverage later. When Real - Barca was kicking off in the evening in Spain, Liverpool - Utd was kicking off at lunch time in the UK. Why? Because 12 noon in the UK is prime time in the far east. PL games were attracking millions of overseas viewers while La Liga games were being played when these supporters were sleeping.

 

[adam cool dude]

I see this more of a way for the European teams to get closer to the Premier League as it is running way off into the distance compared to other leagues.

With that all said a league comprising of 34 games will show far more accurately who are the best team in Europe.

 

[FMF]

Serie A do not sell the rights individually (nor the Bundesliga or Ligue 1) and La Liga hasn't for years. The PL has distributed TV money more evenly than these other Leagues however the biggest reason for the growth of the PL is from overseas revenue.

If you ask a people what's the biggest game in Europe most would say Real - Barca however if you look at viewing figures it's not close. The PL have always been one step ahead of other European Leagues. At the start of the PL they were giving overseas tv rights away for nothing because they wanted to build up loyal viewers that they could leverage later. When Real - Barca was kicking off in the evening in Spain, Liverpool - Utd was kicking off at lunch time in the UK. Why? Because 12 noon in the UK is prime time in the far east. PL games were attracking millions of overseas viewers while La Liga games were being played when these supporters were sleeping.

But its the initial growth in the home market that allowed the PL to expand overseas. Real/ Barca realised to late their model was flawed.

I'd be interested to know how much a football TV package cost in the other European leagues and whether the PL see this as a threat to their model also.

 

[FMF]

But its the initial growth in the home market that allowed the PL to expand overseas. Real/ Barca realised to late their model was flawed.

I'd be interested to know how much a football TV package cost in the other European leagues and whether the PL see this as a threat to their model also.

 

[mmj_uk]

I'd be all for this if they have a system of promotion and relegation something like how the bottom 2-3 teams at the end of the season are replaced by the top finishing team(s) from their own country but I very much doubt Man UTD and Liverpool etc would want to join if they ran the risk of dropping out of it.

 

[BaZ87]

But its the initial growth in the home market that allowed the PL to expand overseas. Real/ Barca realised to late their model was flawed.

I'd be interested to know how much a football TV package cost in the other European leagues and whether the PL see this as a threat to their model also.

Yes, you had the initial growth due to domestic rights but that was down to the launch of Sky Sports, pumping in millions of pounds to the League, rather than any competitiveness within the League. As I said, the PL and Richard Scudamore in particular, were always 1 step ahead of other Leagues and this is the reason for the growth in the PL.

Before EU competition laws prevented one broadcaster owning all rights to a single League, the PL already decided to break up the PL's rights into smaller packages as they knew nobody could compete with Sky for the whole thing. This forced Sky to pay a premium on every single package because a BBC, ITV or whoever, were suddenly able to compete for 1 small package of games even if they couldn't compete for the rights as a whole. Every time the PL bubble was supposed to have burst Scudamore would negotiate even bigger tv contracts, bringing in new rivals to Sky, forcing them to pay more and more.

The PL have always played the long game - at the most recent rights sale they were willing to and in the end did accept a lower payment from Amazon for the rights for certain games as they wanted one of the big internet giants on board, knowing that was their big area of growth for the future. They've rinsed every penny they can get out of Sky & BT for now so they need an Amazon or Netflix to join the bidding, if not to actually win the rights but to force Sky to pay more. And when they've got the most they can out of broadcasters, they've still got their joker to play. The PL pushing their League around the world, giving rights away for next to nothing for years, playing games at times that benefited Chinese viewers more than UK viewers has lead to the PL having 100s of millions of supporters around the world. As soon as they fully trust the tech (another reason for getting Amazon on board) and it makes financial sense for them to do so, they'll launch their own Netflix style service and they'll generate even more money.

 

[IronSpider]

From the reports I listened to this is by invite only and no qualification. Fair enough then the first invites should be to the top 3 or 4 clubs who have won the most premiership titles in X years. Liverpool have been relevant as a premiership force for two years. Why should they get precedent over a Chelsea or Arsenal. Also if it's invite only then any revenue should not factor in FFP. I don't mind if this replaces the CL but needs to have qualification, not some elite club with the yanks of Liverpool and United gouging out money for themselves with no hint they can be replaced.

Almost as much of a joke as calling Everton and Spurs a member of the 'big 6'. Well at least Everton won something 20 odd years go. Spurs have won almost nothing and haven't won the league since the 60's. At least theres still some everton fans alive that can remember their last league win.

 

[adam cool dude]

From the reports I listened to this is by invite only and no qualification. Fair enough then the first invites should be to the top 3 or 4 clubs who have won the most premiership titles in X years. Liverpool have been relevant as a premiership force for two years. Why should they get precedent over a Chelsea or Arsenal. Also if it's invite only then any revenue should not factor in FFP. I don't mind if this replaces the CL but needs to have qualification, not some elite club with the yanks of Liverpool and United gouging out money for themselves with no hint they can be replaced.

Almost as much of a joke as calling Everton and Spurs a member of the 'big 6'. Well at least Everton won something 20 odd years go. Spurs have won almost nothing and haven't won the league since the 60's. At least theres still some everton fans alive that can remember their last league win.

So Nottingham Forest should be in there as they have won more European Cups than everyone bar two clubs

 

[IronSpider]

So Nottingham Forest should be in there as they have won more European Cups than everyone bar two clubs

There's loads of ways of looking at it, since the premier league started Liverpool have won it once in 28 years. A bit rich that when it has been won their American owners along with the other yanks at United are pushing to gouge more money out of it with a closed shop league in Europe. What happens when Liverpool fall back out of the top 4 in the EPL? Do they continue in their closed shop league? Same with United. For all the stick Chelsea and City have had with their owners at least it's pouring/wasting money into the game instead of taking it out.

 

[HangTime]

18 team max PL was supposed to be the case for absolutely AGES now (certainly well over a decade), one of the governing bodies I think it might have been UEFA had set a directive that the leagues across Europe should be max 18 teams, I think England and Spain were on the naughty boy list. Need to get this chopped down, just do what they did when reducing it from 22 teams, 4 down 2 up. Obviously need to look at the concertina effect presumably resulting in more teams pushed down into the conference.

 

[adam cool dude]

There's loads of ways of looking at it, since the premier league started Liverpool have won it once in 28 years. A bit rich that when it has been won their American owners along with the other yanks at United are pushing to gouge more money out of it with a closed shop league in Europe. What happens when Liverpool fall back out of the top 4 in the EPL? Do they continue in their closed shop league? Same with United. For all the stick Chelsea and City have had with their owners at least it's pouring/wasting money into the game instead of taking it out.

If you look at top 6 right now based on honours won it is basically the big six as they are referred to now.

 

[BaZ87]

18 team max PL was supposed to be the case for absolutely AGES now (certainly well over a decade), one of the governing bodies I think it might have been UEFA had set a directive that the leagues across Europe should be max 18 teams, I think England and Spain were on the naughty boy list. Need to get this chopped down, just do what they did when reducing it from 22 teams, 4 down 2 up. Obviously need to look at the concertina effect presumably resulting in more teams pushed down into the conference.

A number of journalists have commented on this recently. It was generally accepted from the time in which the PL was formed that it would eventually be cut to 18 teams, with the idea that a smaller League would benefit the national side - at least that was the sales pitch to the FA to secure their backing. As soon as the PL exploded and the TV money flowed in, I guess too many of smaller sides changed their mind.

The EFL as a whole didn't seem overly concerned about losing two League 2 sides to the National League though but if that was an issue then, as Neville suggested, just have a 26 team League 2.

 

[BaZ87]

Some interesting news on Project Big Picture in the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ture-talks-fa-chairman?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Rick Parry already outed Greg Clarke, the FA Chairman, as the man that brought everbody to the table regarding Project Big Picture however Clarke had claimed that he broke off talks once it became about power/money for the big boys. Well it turns out that was BS. The Guardian have found that Clarke was involved in talks right up until covid brought everything to a stand still, even claiming that Clarke was involved in the breakaway threat and was discussing how they would execute the plan, and resumed talks with John Henry as late as September.

Like Clarke, Parry also told all EFL sides that Richard Masters was aware that talks were going on although Masters didn't attend them. The Guardian have seen emails showing that Gary Hoffman, the PL's chairman, had seen the plans though, responded positvely to them and was due to become involved with talks before the plans were leaked to the public.

 

[chrcoluk]

It's not a bluff. FIFA have been actively looking to create their own rival to the CL for a number of years with initial plans to expand the Club World Cup and play it in the summer. Even without this tournament, as who knows whether it will happen, the alternative will be an expanded CL with 14 group games instead of the current 6.

This is why the big sides want the League cut to 18 teams and the fact that this is backed by FIFA will put huge pressure on the FA to clear the calendar to make this happen.

Yes we know this, the problem I have is I think its BS!! to cull the English calendar for favour of international tournaments.

The CL needs to have less games, but they keep increasing it. Same with Europa, and not only that a 3rd tier European tournament is on the way as well.

I am curious given your support for the big boys are so far, are you also a fan of the new coefficient money sharing under the European competitions?

Also the table never had everyone at it, most of the PL heard about it first hand from the press. The first mistake was to only have meetings with a few clubs, thinking that would be all that was needed.

Other things to be alarmed about is the links of the FA with the big clubs.

Looking e.g. at the history of Leicester. The vast majority of the time if one of our players makes the England squad, they usually become unsettled within a year having getting tapped up by other squad members. I have always suspected when a non big 6 team player gets called up, its at the request of a big club so they can tap the player up, Vardy who didnt leave the club, did come very close to doing so, and he even told the local radio channel that the main reason he quit the England squad was because the tapping up was getting extreme and he felt he was only in the squad to be got at, this was messing with his head, interestingly no national media reported it. Chilwell who recently was sold to Chelsea has now admitted he got tapped up late last year when training with England, when coincidentally his form for us fell of a cliff.

Manchester United had an extraordinary good run of refereeing decisions on their late surge to the CL spot they got, even Liverpool fans noticed it, and questioned what was going on, at the same time Leicester were getting some very strange VAR decisions against them. Both EPL refereeing and VAR are manned by FA officials.

 

[Shamikebab]

Looking e.g. at the history of Leicester. The vast majority of the time if one of our players makes the England squad, they usually become unsettled within a year having getting tapped up by other squad members. I have always suspected when a non big 6 team player gets called up, its at the request of a big club so they can tap the player up, Vardy who didnt leave the club, did come very close to doing so, and he even told the local radio channel that the main reason he quit the England squad was because the tapping up was getting extreme and he felt he was only in the squad to be got at, this was messing with his head, interestingly no national media reported it. Chilwell who recently was sold to Chelsea has now admitted he got tapped up late last year when training with England, when coincidentally his form for us fell of a cliff.

Manchester United had an extraordinary good run of refereeing decisions on their late surge to the CL spot they got, even Liverpool fans noticed it, and questioned what was going on, at the same time Leicester were getting some very strange VAR decisions against them. Both EPL refereeing and VAR are manned by FA officials.

Are....are you serious?

 

[BaZ87]

Yes we know this, the problem I have is I think its BS!! to cull the English calendar for favour of international tournaments.....

That's obviously your opinion but it's not shared by broadcasters and it stands to reason that broadcasters want more European football and specifically more games between the bigger sides because that's what attracts more viewers. It would appear that your opinion is therefore in the minority. I certainly would rather see an extra few games between Liverpool/Utd/Real/Barca/Bayern etc at the expence of Burnley v West Brom.

As for the comment about not bringing everybody to the table, I was referring to those involved in talks. It had initially been suggested that this was all Liverpool, Utd and Rick Parry's idea however it was just convenient to point the finger at them. Greg Clarke, the chairman of the FA, set it all up and the PL via both Masters and Hoffman were fully aware that talks were going on and in Hoffman's case had seen the plans and was due to participate in future talks. The PL board and FA were happy to act all shocked and offended but it turns out they were well onside too.