I think it's more about how you express that thought and who you choose to share that thought with.
Rachel Riley - political commentator.
- Thread starter h4rm0ny
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Soldato
Must be amazing to have never made a crass comment or never had a crass thought.
At the end of the day shes intelligent, has a sense of humour and shes mighty fine, dont you think all this faux rage about a **** comment is a bit much?
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Soldato
Tbh, if Owen said something along the lines of "Egging political opponents is fine" then fair enough - but he explicitly said "Egging a Nazi"
But as much as I dislike Corbyn (also Owen Jones on that matter) he isn't a Nazi & the comparison doesn't work & isn't very clever. The slightly more insidious aspect is to further push the narrative that criticism of the state of Israel is somehow akin to Nazism.
Antisemitism in the Labour party is more complex than the narrative will allow,
People who are antisemitic and have an Islamic background will support Labour due to the leaders stance on Israel.
People who are antisemitic & have a English nationality will tend to vote for the BNP/UKIP/Conservative party. (due to them being less likely to have pro immigration policies).
However, the vast majority of normal Conservative party members or Labour members are not antisemitic & neither party has any policies which come anywhere near it. The issue comes from the fact that only half of the known antisemitic side is spoken about in the most popular media.
On-top of that we have the media & Israel (as of the leaked tapes) openly stating them want to smear anybody who doesn't outright support them as being a racist. The media doesn't like JC due to his stance on high earners and tax, not that I believe it's some massive conspiracy.
Just more unenlightened self-interest.
But as much as I dislike Corbyn (also Owen Jones on that matter) he isn't a Nazi & the comparison doesn't work & isn't very clever. The slightly more insidious aspect is to further push the narrative that criticism of the state of Israel is somehow akin to Nazism.
Antisemitism in the Labour party is more complex than the narrative will allow,
People who are antisemitic and have an Islamic background will support Labour due to the leaders stance on Israel.
People who are antisemitic & have a English nationality will tend to vote for the BNP/UKIP/Conservative party. (due to them being less likely to have pro immigration policies).
However, the vast majority of normal Conservative party members or Labour members are not antisemitic & neither party has any policies which come anywhere near it. The issue comes from the fact that only half of the known antisemitic side is spoken about in the most popular media.
On-top of that we have the media & Israel (as of the leaked tapes) openly stating them want to smear anybody who doesn't outright support them as being a racist. The media doesn't like JC due to his stance on high earners and tax, not that I believe it's some massive conspiracy.
Just more unenlightened self-interest.
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Soldato
You could be gay though?
But of course anti-Zionism must equal anti-semitism...completely insidious. History will look back on Israel in 200 years and say, wtf was everyone thinking.
I think it’s more about context.
I have groups of friends who may have said something similar to Diddum’s comment — either in person or in one of our small WhatsApp groups. I may have even said something along those lines myself in one of those contexts to those people.
However, just as I wouldn’t say that sort of thing at work, in front of strangers or less well-known acquaintances, I don’t think an online public forum is an appropriate place to say that kind of thing.
You may feel you know Diddums well enough so that the ‘lads banter’ is fine, but this isn’t a private WhatsApp group.
Agreed. I have plenty of criticisms of Corbyn, but they're to do with economic policy or authoritarianism. He could be anti-semitic but how would I know? I get very tired of the endless attempts to conflate criticism of Israel (an apartheid state that sells weapons to genocidal groups engaged in ethnic cleansing) with anti-antisemitism. Zionism is Racial Supremacist movement for Jewish people. And about as historically well-founded as most racial supremacist movements (whether that be Afrocentrists, Aryan cults, or whatever). I've yet to see any charges of anti-antisemitism against Corbyn that don't in fact turn out to be opposition to Israel in my mind.
Apparently Macron, in France, has proposed legally defining criticism of Israel as anti-antisemitism.
so what did Corbyn do / say that so anti Jewish?? I hear about this anti-Semitism all the time (in relation to the labour party) but the news never says what was said / done... I'm picturing allegation of secret death camps, swastika flags and shrines to Hitler ...
also Rachel Riley can say anything she wants, that's one fine woman in every sense of the word
also Rachel Riley can say anything she wants, that's one fine woman in every sense of the word
So Egging a poltical opponent then?
Corbyn's, by his statements and actions , is a Marxist who has spent a disproportionate amount of his time in the past in the company of some very dubious people.
Marxism and the sort of people Corbyn likes to call his friends are at least as culpable, human suffering wise, as actual nazism (not just people called nazi's as a pejorative term) and its slightly hyperbolic to call Nick Griffin a 'Nazi' in the first place as his tenure as leader saw the party drift somewhat away from its combat 18 past towards more mainstream positions.
You don't get to excuse political violence against some and not others we have the state to deal with people who cross the line.
If Jones is OK with 'nazi's' being attacked . ... guess what 'communists', 'socialists' and 'Marxists' just became fair game in the minds of others for attacks from their political opponents.
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Soldato
He isn't a Marxist though is he?.
He's 'big state socialist' which isn't the same thing. The manifesto of the Labour party is one with the intent move towards Nordic EU nations policies - not 1950's Soviet Russia.
I don't really agree with Owen Jones on egging anybody tbh, it can still classify as assault. My issue is with the intentional misframing of criticism of a state as the same as bigotry against Jewish people.
If by friends you're referring to dubious people he's spoken to & a form of guilt by association I assume you also hold Thatcher as a villain (Pinochet, Saville) & the Queen is as low regard for rubbing shoulders with dictators & murderers over the last 50 years like every single other leader has/does.
Due to his support of Palestine, attending any event related to this will involve a number of bigots against Jewish people also. As will attending a pro-Israel event likely have a population of bigots against Muslims. (only one seems to be criticised).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of his & would like somebody more moderate/appealing to the public to replace him as leader - but I'd prefer criticisms to be on his actual policies which are problematic.
Such as large scale nationalisation without much thought of the end cost for example.
From what I've seen, nothing. He takes a stance against Israel, he is supportive of Palestinian rights (and I think nationhood). There's a powerful Zionist lobby that instantly takes anything remotely like that and casts it as antisemitic. He may or may not have some antisemitism in his party these days as Labour have a growing number of Islamic members at various levels and antisemitism is rife in a lot of Islamic communities. But I've not seen anything from him of that kind. All I know is you can't say one damn thing against Israel without you being called antisemitic. Even if you're Jewish.
Corbyn is at least as much a 'Marxist' as Nick Griffin is a 'nazi'
Corbyn has advocated seizing and occupying private property and has a self declared Marxist as his Chancellor and closest political ally just for starters.
None of which matters because we should not allow individuals or groups to carry out political violence without harsh punishment and thoose that excuse it are at best fools and at worst down right evil.
We have a goverment that can proscribe groups and can prosecute people for speech that actually is intended to incite violence.
Jones is a trashy petulant political ideologue who demonstrably thinks its fine to rough up his political opponents yet cries foul when it's his side in the receiving end.
A responsible journalist would recognise that you have to condone such acts of political violence even if its perpetrated against your political foes. The whole basis of modern Western democracy largely rests on the idea of a discourse where the parties and their supporters themselves are not permitted to engage in violence against their opponents and instead must seek to win in the market place of ideas and at the ballot box.
And the Nordic nations are not 'big state socialist. ' countries either.
There are actually countries with high degrees of economic freedom with high taxation and high welfare spending. This isn't socialism.
For example.... Norway a country with a tiny population, massive amounts of natural resources and which rates at 26\180 ranked countries for economic freedom (an index with with positive indicators that are the opposite of Socialist ideology....)
Or Sweeden.. .
... One of the more economically Liberal countries in the world.
Source
Economic freedom is the antithesis of socialism.
Here is Venezuela .
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Permabanned
AFAIK, as odious an individual as he is, Nick Griffin isn't a Nazi either.
I guess they both embrace elements of socialism, sure Griffin's socialism is seemingly influenced by the Nazi's "national socialism" rather than the international socialism Corbyn seems to be inspired by though ironically he seems (or seemed, as the BNP doesn't seem to be a party anymore) to be more concerned about stopping antisemitism within his party than Corbyn is within Labour. Corbyn has his own little militant group that seek to remove internal enemies from the party and abuse/intimidate opponents, sure they don't wear uniforms but that is illegal these days anyway.
If SJWs can throw around the Nazi label then why not a Jewish Celebrity, campaigning against antisemitism, who has been target of abuse by Corbyn's