RIP

Wise Guy
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Kroegen said:
Well they should have found that out before actually killing a random person which they wernt 100% sure of the identity.

You cant go around playing god without facts.
Wonderful thing, 20/20 hindsight.

Armed police, unfortunately, often (if not usually) aren't in the luxurious position of having such categoric data, and they have to act in accordance with their training, procedure, operational commands, relevant laws and the circumstances of the situation as they see it. They are, after all, Johnny-on-the-spot, and the ones who's butts (and lives) are on the line if they get it wrong.

This, unfortunately, will sometimes lead to innocent people getting killed and, tragically, that's what happened here .... as far as we know from the rather vague and confusing information that has so far been made public.

But you have to realise that when police are in this type of situation, they are aware that there will be a set of consequences if they fire, but a good probability of another set of consequences if they don't. And in this case, what they believed those consequences were likely to be was an explosion that would not only kill the "bomber", but the officers and probably dozens of innocent commuters. So these officers (it seems) acted under the belief that had they not done so, dozens of innocent people could have been killed.

Unfortunately, the world isn't as simple as the "100% sure" you'd require implies. It just isn't like that. And police have to deal with the world as it is and the situation as they find it, not as how they'd like it to be.

J-C de Menezes was unlucky enough to have a very nasty set of circumstances conspire against him and, it seems, a sequence of mistakes occur (though we'll know more when the report is finally published) and he paid for it with his life. This wasn't the first time, and it no doubt won't be the last time. But if you wait for 100% certainty, nothing will ever get done and sooner or later, they'll be a far worse and eminently preventable tragedy.
 
Soldato
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Sequoia said:
But if you wait for 100% certainty, nothing will ever get done and sooner or later, they'll be a far worse and eminently preventable tragedy.
How certain do you think the police really were in this case? 75%, perhaps 50? Where would you draw the line?

It was the lack of such certainty which significantly contributed towards the abolishment of capital punishment back in 1957. Something worth bearing in mind.
 
Wise Guy
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Domo said:
How certain do you think the police really were in this case? 75%, perhaps 50? Where would you draw the line?

It was the lack of such certainty which significantly contributed towards the abolishment of capital punishment back in 1957. Something worth bearing in mind.
I think I don't have anything like enough information to form an informed opinion on how sure they were. That's why I'm a bit peeved that this Health and Safety case has delayed publication of the report into the affair.

I don't know if the police acted correctly or not. That mistakes were made is pretty obvious, but were they preventable mistakes? Was it a huge ****-up, is there any personal culpability either at ground level or command level? Or was it just a terrible sequence of minor problems that culminated in a tragic but understandable major misjudgement?

Dunno. I don't have enough info to judge. And all we can do is wait until we do have that info.
 
Soldato
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ok then since we are doing the debate thing...

How would you all feel about the police if the guy WAS a suicide bomber... and they didn't shoot, or shot him once and he managed to detonate his bomb in the train?

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THEN???

I'll tell you what the News of the World/etc would say:

"Police watch on as suicide bomber kills 27..."

"Horrendous mistake causes 27 more deaths..."

etc....

If you happen to notice police with guns, 2 weeks after a major terrorist attack, and those officers order you to stop and don't move...

DO NOT RUN ON TO A TRAIN WITH A BACKPACK ON.

I can't make it any more clearer. And as for his family trying to push for the individual officers to be prosecuted... well they can just **** right off.
 
Soldato
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Somewhere in the middle.
Docaroo said:

Ok so the family of an innocent man, who was shot dead. Have no reason to want justice for their lost son?. Obviously if it was your son shot dead you would just put it down to being a victim of consiquence and carry on as usual.

And for the running with backpack etc, nobody actually knows for sure what happened so until storys from witnesses come out in full then we have no way of being sure what the hell we are talking about
 
Soldato
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Hedge said:
...so the family of an innocent man...
Answers.com said:
Innocent - Not guilty of a specific crime or offense; legally blameless: was innocent of all charges
BBC said:
The Home Office says his visa expired at [30th June 2003] and that he remained illegally in the UK until his death.

Whilst any loss of life is sad, he was not entirely innocent - But then who are we to comment as we weren't there at the time of the shoting.
 
Soldato
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No... I'm saying that it is not right at all to blame the officers involved.

I would have shot him too - just weeks after the 7/7 attacks??

I can't understand why he wouldn't listen to police commands... beyond belief.


Completely irrelevant but the point was made that he was an illegal immigrant.
 
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