Road Cycling

[Saytan]

100psi in a 32?

ouch.

when i was commuting at a similar weight to you, with around 6kg in a pannier i ran 28s at 75-80

 

[mrthingyx]

100psi in a 32?

ouch.

when i was commuting at a similar weight to you, with around 6kg in a pannier i ran 28s at 75-80

My panniers were a fair bit heavier, and I was commuting at "a bit heavier," too.

I don't like my bike being all squishy at the back end (wheels are quite narrow).

 

[Drollic]

Don't be lured in by their peesh min.
25's tops.

I love the "everyone wants to be like the pro's" stuff flung about all over the shop. Nobody is riding about on tubs everywhere. and 25mm is absolutely perfect for a lot of people..... 25mm at 80-90PSI is fine but suppose if you are 80-100KG's you need to run 28's to run at PSI like that. So is this really a discussion on which tyre size is more comfortable or more so what PSI is more comfortable depending on how much you weigh?

You say they're fine as that is what the marketing tells you and is what you see top tier on good surfaces at speeds in excess of 25mph averages. There is no reason to not use them sub 24 average like I say, as they roll quicker. It's free comfort and more speed. There is making it hard on yourself for percievable benefit such as holding an aero position. There is then making it hard on yourself to travel slower with more discomfort. As per usual, which boardman picked up on, numerous riders at yesterdays worlds resting their arms on the bars, mostly to relieve pressure from wrists. It's more frequent towards the latter stages. This isn't just from position and this is on mostly smooth surface. Nothing to do with weight whatsoever. The comfort and rolling resistance applies to all. If you've got mates who you ride in a group with, no doubt some will think it's perfect. You then see them taking their hands off the bars or swapping position as well as standing every now and again for no other reason apart from discomfort.

I'll drop it now anyhow, only need to look at the way clearances are going as well as wheel brands. 25s will be the new 23s outside of high end racing within 3 years.

 

[Berger]

I was using 28s on my commuter/winter bike before it was cool, and before you could get wide rims. my "best" bike won't take more than a 23. It definitely has more zip, though I am using racier tyres.

Definitely *feels* like it has more zip.

The directly comparable science shows a 28 is identical in rolling resistance to a 23 11.4w per tyre for a GP5000, when you make the appropriate reduction in pressure for the larger tyres volume.

You *may* lose some aerodynamics. But if your frame is designed for a wider tyre and you’re running a narrower one, it might be worse, one of those “it depends” but it’s going to be a very small amount.

 

[Saytan]

Definitely *feels* like it has more zip.

The directly comparable science shows a 28 is identical in rolling resistance to a 23 11.4w per tyre for a GP5000, when you make the appropriate reduction in pressure for the larger tyres volume.

You *may* lose some aerodynamics. But if your frame is designed for a wider tyre and you’re running a narrower one, it might be worse, one of those “it depends” but it’s going to be a very small amount.

I suspect the extra zip is down to the racier tyres (veloflex masters vs prime armour), and latex tubes. The bike as a whole is measurably faster, but then it's lighter and has less draggy addons too.

 

[Drollic]

The directly comparable science shows a 28 is identical in rolling resistance to a 23 11.4w per tyre for a GP5000, when you make the appropriate reduction in pressure for the larger tyres volume.

You're missing the most important part of whatever test that's taken from, and that's the quality of the road surface. The more it gets away from 100% perfect road (no road is), the more the larger tyre gains up to the speeds I mentioned. If you want to see a rough idea of this in action and how silly it gets at the extreme end, see gcns video where a mountain bike is quicker over the roubaix cobbles compared to a road bike. All down to its ability to soak up vibration.

A well known endurance cyclist this year commented that with his testing, uk roads in general were costing him roughly 15w extra to maintain around 18mph compared to the smoothest of roads elsewhere in the world. This is on a 28 afaik...

 

[Berger]

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/grand-prix-5000-comparison#setup

This is the article I was referencing. All using the same diamond pattern drum to simulate an average road.

All the results between the widths have an almost imperceivable difference in wattage. There is ofc a slight weight penalty for the wider tyre.

 

[Drollic]

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/grand-prix-5000-comparison#setup

This is the article I was referencing. All using the same diamond pattern drum to simulate an average road.

All the results between the widths have an almost imperceivable difference in wattage. There is ofc a slight weight penalty for the wider tyre.

I can't take it seriously as a controlled test as they have tested on a 17c rim where you shouldn't run a 28c tyre or above. It's too narrow and the outer will also be narrow taking away the aero benefit due to tyre overhang. The test favours the 23c and 25c. The comfort test is also therefore pointless, as with a 20-21c rim, the 28 can be run at an even lower pressure, in the 70s easily relative to 87 on 25. To match this, the narrower tyres on their 17c would need a pressure that raises their resistance. You may even be risking pinch flats at that point. Likewise, you could then run the 28 at a slightly higher pressure to reduce resistance.

The drum used states an average road. This is almost meaningless. As I say, the more the road is imperfect, the more you gain at 28.

As said, wider runs faster at up to speeds mentioned, it's why they're now stretching 25 up to 27-28 on wide rims. You get to run lower pressure. Specialized are ones to look at as they have there own wheel brand. Not just about off shelf and price. 35mm wide front on sl7 with negative overhang on most tyres. 26s more like 28s even new. This is on a race bike with aggressive geo in reach and stack. Makes some aero bikes geo look average.

 

[AndyCr15]

Syncing my Wahoo ELEMNT is taking longer and longer now, I know @Roady has said how slow his device is generally... I'm wondering if I should just factory reset to remove all the old rides and hopefully speed syncing after a ride again? Is there any reason not to?

 

[Berger]

I can't take it seriously as a controlled test as they have tested on a 17c rim where you shouldn't run a 28c tyre or above. It's too narrow and the outer will also be narrow taking away the aero benefit due to tyre overhang. The test favours the 23c and 25c. The comfort test is also therefore pointless, as with a 20-21c rim, the 28 can be run at an even lower pressure, in the 70s easily relative to 87 on 25. To match this, the narrower tyres on their 17c would need a pressure that raises their resistance. You may even be risking pinch flats at that point. Likewise, you could then run the 28 at a slightly higher pressure to reduce resistance.

The drum used states an average road. This is almost meaningless. As I say, the more the road is imperfect, the more you gain at 28..

We are mostly in agreement here.

Yes a 17c wheel is now a little small, but it works as a control as does the drum used.

The test doesn’t factor in aero, only rolling resistance.

Far from the drum used being meaningless it allows a reliable repetition. I cannot see how you could do this another way simply?

The comfort test I’ll agree the pressures are a little high 81psi in a 28, I’d have thought 65-75 more appropriate.

In the absence of anything else it’s a lot better than hearsay.

 

[Drollic]

We are mostly in agreement here.

Yes a 17c wheel is now a little small, but it works as a control as does the drum used.

The test doesn’t factor in aero, only rolling resistance.

Far from the drum used being meaningless it allows a reliable repetition. I cannot see how you could do this another way simply?

The comfort test I’ll agree the pressures are a little high 81psi in a 28, I’d have thought 65-75 more appropriate.

In the absence of anything else it’s a lot better than hearsay.

Aware it doesn't test aero, worth highlighting. The problem is, as a result of the control, the results are skewed. The 23 will be stretched, the 25 will be around as intended, and the 28 and 32 in particular will be miss shapen/ballooned and in turn, their shape and contact patch not how it should be. This hampers their performance and yet they still compete whilst offering more comfort.

I agree without the drum, it's difficult to test. In saying this, the variation here is crucial as it is the small vibrations in the surface that make the biggest difference to the resistance. An average road for instance in a warm climate without ice is completely different to what we have.

I go back to my original point, which is simply this. I personally wouldn't spend thousands on a road bike now unless the frame can support 28s at 30-31mm and if off shelf, has wide ID rims. You then have the option.

I currently ride 25 on sub 18mm ID I should add. 6'1 72kg.

 

[Saytan]

it wasnt that long ago that anything wider than a 17c rim was for a tourer.

 

[Jonny ///M]

Rim brakes haven't caught up yet really, some wide rims have the brakes feeling absolutely terrible due to the starting position of the pad being right at the start of the arc. The pad hits the rim at such an angle.

 

[Berger]

Maybe they never will and will be pushed out by big disc.

Almost long drops and full guards time! Summer gone on longer than normal this year, had some great days recently. Rain all day tomorrow though!

 

[Jonny ///M]

Rim brakes are pretty dead aye!

I put the supersix back to standard and gave it a proper clean so it can go sit in the shop. If I kept it sitting I'd end up using it on a salty day and get ****** off with myself.

Not sure if I'll build a proper winter bike up or just use my Felt on Zwift and on the road when I go out in the cold. Did a short TT on Zwift earlier and it felt magic. Something about a 56cm Felt with a 12cm stem works for me.

 

[Roady]

Wow where to begin... I was feeling like a touch of illness/cold/flu symptoms last Thursday, but rode the TTT on Zwift anyway as didn't want to miss out and just thought 'bring it on' to get illness over and done with. Friday riding home with the lad in his chariot we went to meet the other half from work, I got proper cold waiting and should've put on another layer when being stopped that long. Whoops. Sure enough that did it - wiped out the weekend and most of monday & tuesday by this lurgy. Feeling ok some of the time, other times utterly drained. Sinuses blocked and nose streaming with a bit of a cough. No other symptoms (thankfully) so assume it's just general cough/cold and not isolated with the dreaded red plague. Still no riding for 4 days as it was the lads birthday on monday (3! Where did that come from!). Back to it now, feeling about 65% but on the up. Cold sores inside my nose are the worst, frequent blowing really painful and grim. Anyone else get them? Seem to be loads worse than when I was younger and didn't cycle. The cold air really doesn't help with them.

More positive/less moaning/self pitying aside - it's good to see the chatter here returning about tyres and rims. Good work @Drollic ! Pretty much what I've been advocating the last few years, but one thing I would note is the tyre choice has a massive difference. I'm on my 4th set of 28's and these Hutchingson Fusion 5 TL do feel much more like a 25 than a 28. Nowhere near as soft as a Conti GP or the others. In a 28 at lower pressures the softer tyre compound and feel/feedback you get from them is quite a bit different to a 23 or 25 at higher pressures. These feel like a 25 at 65 PSI. The others (Spec Roubaix) at 40/50 PSI felt like a 32.

I also hit a curb this morning (roadworks). Huge bang. Not sure what, tyres and spokes looked ok, so unsure if I broke anything... Probably a buckle. Limped to work, can tell I've lost quite a bit of pressures, but at least Tubeless so no flats. Hopefully the bang was just both rims bottoming out... Gah.

I will check those out. I do actually ride around Chepstow quite often as a close friend lives close-by. I actually did a shorter route, taking in Tintern, there last weekend and I agree it is beautiful around there

Tintern is glorious, much of that area is, all those little hidden away castles and lanes which are always so rolling. Monmouth/Ross areas are nice too and I imagine a bit further over towards Gloucester is too although I've not really ridden that way. There's a climb across the river in Monmouth to Staunton I've been meaning to revisit, spectacular road with quite a nice shallow long climb, switchbacks and fantastic views. It doesn't even have a name!

For me some of the best parts were the descents and it was certainly a loop that was a graft>reward graft> reward.

I would advise anyone who wants to try it to try it, was really exactly what i was hoping for and more.

Haha much of wales or even the border areas (around here) are like that, just so rolling you go from ramp to ramp, climb to climb and each is a small victory!

Also why I think I enjoy riding as much as I do around here. I'm a country boy at heart and although I've not ridden much of the areas I grew up around, the stuff I'm riding here isn't that different, just has a few flatter and faster roads. So the times I have ventured out to 'those parts' I've usually had good enough fitness/legs to enjoy them and not find them utterly impossible/destroying.

I'm sticking with tubed for now, for simplicity and have realised, I only get punctures on the rear, so the front may as well go back to GP5000. So, ordered a pair (as they were cheaper) of GP5000 and one 4 Season for the back, for winter. Then will swap the 5000 onto the back next Feb/March. I'll throw the Gatorskins on eBay as they've only done 100 miles.

Good choice, although surprised you didn't run the Gators longer than that before deciding, but equally know how 'iffy' running a tyre you don't like is. You didn't get great mileage out of the GP5000 considering their cost but equally, they are at the 'premium' end of the scale so very little can come close to them. Riding something you know & trust is a very personal thing, regardless of the expense. I loved the 4Seasons but switched to Mitchelins (Pro 4 Endurance) and liked them too, but not really heard much from people running the newer mitchs which make me think they're not great for the money. Everyone recently seems to be on GP5000's, so everything is compared to them.

How often is a rider of anything around 4w/kg going to be riding above 23-24+ mph average, not often.

I should just add that a lot of bikes have been designed in a cross over phase between 25 being normal with a move to 28s coming. This is why they state 28-30mm clearances in the paperwork - 25c coming in at 26-29mm on wide ID rims like 20-21mm. Cervelo s5 just the same and list goes on.

Really liked this part of your post as it pretty much highlights where the industry is being pushed towards. For various reasons. Obviously selling 'new' bikes and kit is the main aim of the industry, but a large part of that has to be the research and development the big names have put into it steering things that direction (regardless of the Gravel bike 'phenomenon'). If a 26mm tyre was the 'sweet spot' for general riding than 28mm, then I think we'd see the new frames without the large clearances they have now and more focus on aero rim shapes. We seem to be heading wider in both aspects - tyre and rim, for lots of different 'reasons' given by the industry.

But the bit above about a 4w/kg rider... I think you need to re-evaluate where most of the bike industry is aiming it's bike sales at!

Maybe I have too many old dinosaurs around me using 53-39 11-25/28 and 23mm tyres

Probably, but equally that's the more 'traditional' way of doing things and lets be honest... Bike shops are not really at the cutting edge of technology - not until the bikes they're mostly selling and servicing are. Same could be said of most of the clubs around!

80kg = heft? I'm 95kg!

Cycling is one of the rare occasions I wish I was short.

I'm 'short' (5' 7') and 76kg, but with much of the riding I'm doing on Zwift that although that puts me at one of the shortest... It's also one of the heaviest.

So is this really a discussion on which tyre size is more comfortable or more so what PSI is more comfortable depending on how much you weigh?

That's it. But when the science points more and more towards the 28mm not even being slower then...

Personally. I get both sides of it and understand how hard it is to 'measure'. On the one side I don't see how a 28mm at lower pressures can't have more rolling resistance than a 25mm at higher pressures. But you really have to consider we're talking about much more than just 'rolling resistance' once things like rider fatigue and imperfect road surfaces are in the equation to calculate overall rider 'speed' at X distance on Y tyre.

It's just so 'personal' to the rider/frame/area/roads/experience/situation there can be no singular correct answer.

Syncing my Wahoo ELEMNT is taking longer and longer now, I know @Roady has said how slow his device is generally... I'm wondering if I should just factory reset to remove all the old rides and hopefully speed syncing after a ride again? Is there any reason not to?

No real reason if you're using the rides uploaded from it for your ride tracking rather than the Wahoo side of things.

I cleared a bunch of old activity files from mine, it made a little difference, but equally I've learnt to live with mine now and it doesn't bother me. It'll upload everything 'missing' generally the next day, it's very irregularly I have to go in and sync it to the app to upload anything missing. But then because I don't frequently sync it enough with the app that's always a ballache of several weeks of activities for it to 'catch up' with (that have already uploaded from the device to Strava/TP/Komoot).

I go back to my original point, which is simply this. I personally wouldn't spend thousands on a road bike now unless the frame can support 28s at 30-31mm and if off shelf, has wide ID rims. You then have the option.

I currently ride 25 on sub 18mm ID I should add. 6'1 72kg.

Agree, but equally I think you'd be hard pressed to find a new 'popular' brand bike frame, aimed at the masses from the last few years which didn't have room for 28's....

You need to widen your rims! 21mm ID here and it's superb!

 

[AndyCr15]

You didn't get great mileage out of the GP5000 considering their cost but equally, they are at the 'premium' end of the scale so very little can come close to them.

Putting a 4 Season on the back, then a GP5000 on the front, the difference in rubber was very apparent. The GP5000 felt so much softer and pliant, the 4 Season feeling quite thick and stiff... (no jokes please!)

No real reason if you're using the rides uploaded from it for your ride tracking rather than the Wahoo side of things.

I reset, got everything pretty much set back up as it was, before a 40+ miler with some friends today. Initially after resetting, I connected and it seemed to be doing a lot of thinking when I went to history. With about 10 miles to go, I connected the phone back to the unit, when we finished, it had uploaded to Strava by the time I'd got my shoes off... so seems to be back to speeds I would hope for (and previously had)

 

[mrthingyx]

Heh... I was in my LBS a couple of weeks ago having the BB fixed on my TT bike and they announced in front of the Boss that my wheels (RS100s or something) would eventually need changing.

A few trawls of Ebay, etc. later and I come to the conclusion that I just need faster legs. Saving watts on wheels/tyres is possible, but when I am described as "easy to draft because leave a huge hole in the air," I figure posh wheels (and tyres) will have to wait. Although I am toying with the idea of a *fast* gravel bike that can take ridiculous tyres for comfort purposes (I loathe UK roads)...

I can't ride a P2 with deep carbon rims at 20mph, after all...

 

[Roady]

Technology is really beginning to pee me off recently. Anyone use some kinda NAS/personal cloud device which mobiles can sync/backup data to automatically over Wifi? Like Google/Apple cloud simplicity but on a personal device so it's not all online and you can just chuck a bunch of RAID hard drives into?

I also hit a curb this morning (roadworks). Huge bang. Not sure what, tyres and spokes looked ok, so unsure if I broke anything... Probably a buckle. Limped to work, can tell I've lost quite a bit of pressures, but at least Tubeless so no flats. Hopefully the bang was just both rims bottoming out... Gah.

Found the result of my bang. #sadpanda

Crazy to think that only lost a bit of air, I rode to work, found it flat when I came to ride home, put some co2 in (short on time) and easily rode home... Was still up happily at 40 PSI when I took this in the evening. That white blob is sealant with a ~3mm long cut in the sidewall from the impact. Glad it wasn't a carbon... Going to try bending it back this weekend.

So I think I'm also in the market for a winter disk wheelset, after something wide, tubeless and cheap. Well not cheap cheap, but just better value than Zipp!

Current shopping list which I need to check specs, prices and reviews on are: Fulcrum 5's or 7's, alloy Prime's of some kind, Campag Zonda or whatever cheaper ones, some Hunt 4seasons/aero maybe.

Putting a 4 Season on the back, then a GP5000 on the front, the difference in rubber was very apparent. The GP5000 felt so much softer and pliant, the 4 Season feeling quite thick and stiff... (no jokes please!)

I reset, got everything pretty much set back up as it was, before a 40+ miler with some friends today. Initially after resetting, I connected and it seemed to be doing a lot of thinking when I went to history. With about 10 miles to go, I connected the phone back to the unit, when we finished, it had uploaded to Strava by the time I'd got my shoes off... so seems to be back to speeds I would hope for (and previously had)

Haha, now I have no experience of the GP5000 but plenty with the GP4000sii and they are not that much softer than the GP4Seasons I've had... Both are significantly softer compound/feel than everything else I've ridden/currently ride.

Good call with the BOLT and thanks for the update. As said I didn't reset mine, just tried clearing down the activities folder and it had little or no impact. Maybe a reset will be something I do when/if it next annoys me (could be within days at the moment!).

A few trawls of Ebay, etc. later and I come to the conclusion that I just need faster legs. Saving watts on wheels/tyres is possible, but when I am described as "easy to draft because leave a huge hole in the air," I figure posh wheels (and tyres) will have to wait. Although I am toying with the idea of a *fast* gravel bike that can take ridiculous tyres for comfort purposes (I loathe UK roads)...

I can't ride a P2 with deep carbon rims at 20mph, after all...

There's a large amount of options, if you can find stock, at the moment. One thing I would say - so much hype about gravel bikes and I love mine, but some of those bikes that fall 'between' gravel and aero/road might be where to find deals. The Specialized Roubaix, Giant Defy/Contend (I think they called it for one season recently), Trek Domane/Checkpoint, to name a few.

 

[Saytan]

So I'm in the market for a winter disk wheelset, after something wide, tubeless and cheap. Well not cheap cheap, but just better value than Zipp!

handbuilt 32 spoke if you can, that way if something similar happens again it's a tens-of-pounds part and an hour's work rather than binning a few hundred quids worth of otherwise perfectly good bits