Samsung announces first 108MP phone camera sensor, starts production this month

BananaDunka · 12 Aug 2019 at 14:17

The new Xiaomi Mi 4 is said to sport this sensor, and it's a rather gigantic sensor too.

https://news.samsung.com/global/sam...trys-first-108mp-image-sensor-for-smartphones

Some tidbits:

It's almost 3x the area of the sensors in the S10/Pixel 3/iPhone Xs

It's over 50% larger than the Mate 30 Pro's leaked 40MP 1/1.55" sensor

In low light it will use pixel binning to produce 27MP images, in daylight it will use 108MP to produce extremely detailed images. Can't wait to see what kind of dynamic range this thing has and videos recorded at night using it. Hopefully no more blocky grain due to the poor low light performance of current sensors.

I am looking forward to thrashing the SD card in a the next phone with this new sensor

neoboy · 12 Aug 2019 at 17:02

If only Samsung used these sensors in their own phones.

BananaDunka · 12 Aug 2019 at 17:28

They are, the S11 will almost certainly be the first Samsung to use it. It just so happens Xiaomi are hot with new innovations and as they're a development partner for this sensor, and they have a new phone out later this year, they're the first to use it.

AMDPower · 12 Aug 2019 at 19:29

The sensor size is more important than just raw pixel count. You really need to be approaching 1" sensor size to even contemplate replacing your dedicated point and shoot with a phone camera, this is just for the average joe, who know next to nothing about picture quality. Point i am making is don't expect miracles with this or to replace a dedicated camera, There is only so much you can do with the limitations of a 7mm thin phone.

BananaDunka · 12 Aug 2019 at 19:37

AMDPower said:
The sensor size is more important than just raw pixel count. You really need to be approaching 1" sensor size to even contemplate replacing your dedicated point and shoot with a phone camera, this is just for the average joe, who know next to nothing about picture quality. Point i am making is don't expect miracles with this or to replace a dedicated camera, There is only so much you can do with the limitations of a 7mm thin phone.

Whilst the new sensor won't be running circles round an entry level DSLR (an APS-C sensor is still around 5x larger, full frame 10x larger), HMX is still very very impressive and once pixel binned, should easily produce lower resolution images with software enhancements that go together with the hardware like realtime HDR, realtime depth of field etc to produce images that on a social media scale are excellent.

For comparison:

HMX. 108MP 0.8µm. 1/1.33". ~69.5mm²

Mate 30 Pro. 40MP 1.13µm?. 1/1.55". ~45.2mm²?

GW1. 64MP 0.8µm. 1/1.72". ~41.2mm²

IMX600. 40MP 1.0µm. 1/1.78". ~39.9mm². Mate 20 Pro/P30 Pro

IMX586/GM1. 48MP 0.8µm. 1/2"-type. ~30.7mm²

IMX363. 12MP 1.4µm. 1/2.55". ~23.9mm². Pixel 3. S10/iPhone Xs use same sensor size+pixel size

IMX377. 12MP 1.55µm. 1/2.3"). ~29.3mm². Nexus 6P

Lumia 1020. 41.3MP 1.12µm. 2/3" aka 1/1.5". ~51.85mm²

808 PureView. 41.5MP 1.4µm. 1/1.2". ~81.3mm²

Also on reddit visual comparisons have been posted just to show how big a difference is compared to other flagships:

And a technically pointless comparison below but useful just to punch home the size difference between this and a full frame DSLR sensor:

So in short, no phone camera sensor is ever going to outshine a DSLR/Mirrorless, the space inside a phone case is never going to allow for that to be possible until exotic means of image capture materialise that are not electronic sensor based.

jpaul · 12 Aug 2019 at 20:49

but the question is with the (thin) form factor of a phone and the limted quality optics is this anything more than a gimmick .. yes you might have better low light performance,
but wouldn't you be better off with a thicker phone like the 808 and decent optics.
I had posted on this before but for daylight pics the 808 is still competitive.

kona786 · 12 Aug 2019 at 20:57

Hardware is impressive but only half the battle. We're in the era of unbelievable post processing. That's the difference between point and shoots and top end phones. And so is the pocketability and 'with you at all times'-ness.

BananaDunka · 12 Aug 2019 at 20:59

Huawei and Xiaomi have both proven recently with Mate 30 Pro etc that bigger sensor isn't just a gimmick. If the implementation is right especially with software, then it is extremely useful.

Bu yeah we are in a time where hardware based AI is handling all the complex stuff that simply weren't possible before in realtime or accurate either. Google have shown they can apply 20x zoom now with seemingly lossless images, the new Pixel 4 leak on twitter is proof of this! WHilst night sight modes continue to get better and better thanks to software updates. So the new larger sensors capable of huge MP counts but pixel binning where needed should produce even better results at a larger resolution (27MP) vs the current 12MP Samsung has.

I'm looking forward to it.

Azza · 12 Aug 2019 at 21:37

mrk said:
Bu yeah we are in a time where hardware based AI is handling all the complex stuff that simply weren't possible before in realtime or accurate either. Google have shown they can apply 20x zoom now with seemingly lossless images, the new Pixel 4 leak on twitter is proof of this!

Isn't it just a cropped photo from a Pixel 3a?

BananaDunka · 12 Aug 2019 at 22:36

Hmm seems it was: https://www.theverge.com/platform/a.../google-pixel-3a-claude-zellweger-camera-shot

Bah.

jpaul · 12 Aug 2019 at 23:08

re-posting 808 article vs p20 pro
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/22923_By_popular_demand_Nokia_808_Pu.php

Market evidently doesn't want what I do ... but give me a less pocketable phone with better image quality, with which I could really take keeper holiday snaps...
808 was 6 years ago ... maybe rollable/foldable screens will unlock a good compromise.

Smeghead · 14 Aug 2019 at 12:57

jpaul said:
re-posting 808 article vs p20 pro
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/22923_By_popular_demand_Nokia_808_Pu.php

Market evidently doesn't want what I do ... but give me a less pocketable phone with better image quality, with which I could really take keeper holiday snaps...
808 was 6 years ago ... maybe rollable/foldable screens will unlock a good compromise.

That's pretty incredible. I'm glad I still have my 808. Another unsung hero of it is the audio recording capabilities. I've bootlegged a few concerts that sound pretty decent thanks to the 808's mics. I think within the past year or two, phones have finally caught up to it, but it took them so long to do so. Truly a phone way way ahead of its time. Shame what's happened to Nokia today...

I do have to ask though, who on Earth comes up with these megapixel counts? 108MP on a phone? It's utterly ridiculous. Fuji have only just released a 100+MP camera, and that's a medium format sensor; it's absolutely humongous in comparison to this! Why do they not just keep the sensor size but make it ~20MP and create something akin to the A7s series, which does magical things in low light?

Pawnless Endgame · 17 Aug 2019 at 19:59

Smeghead said:
I do have to ask though, who on Earth comes up with these megapixel counts? 108MP on a phone? It's utterly ridiculous. Fuji have only just released a 100+MP camera, and that's a medium format sensor; it's absolutely humongous in comparison to this! Why do they not just keep the sensor size but make it ~20MP and create something akin to the A7s series, which does magical things in low light?

Agreed. My Canon G1X is a relatively old compact camera from 2012. That can shoot 14MP on a 1.5" sensor which is larger than four-thirds. What is the point of 108MP on a phone if it doesn't have the sensor size for it? Surely it would need to shoot full frame to put 108MP to justice?

AMDPower · 17 Aug 2019 at 22:55

Pawnless Endgame said:
Agreed. My Canon G1X is a relatively old compact camera from 2012. That can shoot 14MP on a 1.5" sensor which is larger than four-thirds. What is the point of 108MP on a phone if it doesn't have the sensor size for it? Surely it would need to shoot full frame to put 108MP to justice?

I agree, its chasing numbers to increase sale. Without the sensor size increase pixel density has quick diminishing return i would imagine, how ever large pixel density should help with digital zoom. The other issue is these manufacturers dont want to put large sensors into phones because of profit margins will decrease and we all know how much they like profit. The age of smart phone cameras has really hit point and shoot market hard, DSLR has been resistant to this trend. I do t imagine it would be too wise to create something that would strip even more market share.

Imagine they installed a sensor 1 inch sensor in smart phone that would instantly kill any point and shoot sales. Its inevitable that apart from DSLR and more professional oriented gear phones will replace the rest. The convenience is too great and a trade off most are willing to make. So its only inevitable we should see better and larger sensors in phones over the next 10 years.

BananaDunka · 17 Aug 2019 at 23:01

In this instance its not entirely about chasing numbers (though it helps being 108MP, it is technically and factually the first all 108MP sensor on anything short of a DSLR (Fuji have a 100MP DSLR out), medium format digital backs need not apply...

The HMX uses other hardware features to make use of the 108MP even if it has a physically smaller sensor size than dedicated cameras. It uses that MP count for boosting low light performance via pixel binning when needed and produces sharper good light results when not binning. I suggest reading up on the technical features of this new sensor as no other phone camera has done something the same way yet from what I've read and going by the leaked samples Xiaomi showed the other week, it's going to be rather good.

Also it allows videos to be recorded in lower light with far less noise and better clarity.

Energize · 19 Aug 2019 at 19:19

So we've got a not so tiny 108mp sensor, but we've got relatively mediocre glass that will produce an effective resolution far below 108mp, seems kind of pointless really.

Even the best SLR glass cannot produce 108mp images.

BananaDunka · 19 Aug 2019 at 19:27

Nobody knows the glass that's gonna be used yet, obviously big high end glass on dedicated cameras will always resolve better, but phone glass can only be so good due to the small lens sizes at play. It'll be fine for a phone. Nobody is expecting to produce large format framed wall hangings with shots taken on a phone lol.

Energize · 19 Aug 2019 at 19:42

We might not know the glass, but we can safely say that it will be well below the best SLR glass which can only produce ~35mp, therefore the 108mp sensor is a gimmick that is yet again playing the numbers game.

There is a very good reason why the best interchangeable lens cameras are only around 45mp.

BananaDunka · 19 Aug 2019 at 19:47

Unfair comparison, SLR glass varies in price wildly and with the price increase you get superior resolving power. As talked about earlier, the whole point of these larger high MP phone sensors is for using pixel binning and much better lower light video and stills images that the extra resolution is able to afford with today's hardware.

Energize · 19 Aug 2019 at 19:50

mrk said:
Unfair comparison, SLR glass varies in price wildly and with the price increase you get superior resolving power. As talked about earlier, the whole point of these larger high MP phone sensors is for using pixel binning and much better lower light video and stills images that the extra resolution is able to afford with today's hardware.

Pixel binning does absolutely nothing if your glass is only a few MP. Also, a larger sensor doesn't improve low light image quality (noise) unless your glass aperture scales with it.

E.g. an APS-C at f/2.8 is equivalent to a full frame at f/1.8.