Scottish Inderef Mk2 - lets have a civilized discussion folks.

[the_r_sole]

I think you're selling Scottish voter short - they very well knew there was a reasonable chance for Brexit, assessed the options and voted taking that, along with other factors into account.

The Nationalist trick is to try to paint a united Scotland against the evil Union with Scotland being forced to do things no one agrees with. The majority of Scots who voted voted to remain in the Union on the basis it was a once in a generation decision, and made their decision based on that. The SNP is also trying to paint Scotland as united against Brexit where even then 38% of voters agreed with Brexit in a post "Remain in the Union" world.

It's not a unanimous Scotland versus everyone else the Nats try to paint and for the average working Scot it must be incredibly frustrating to get all this divisive crap dragged up again with the Scottish Parliament choosing to ignore them because they didn't vote the way the SNP required.

You can have exactly the same points around brexit too, it's hardly a landslide in either referendum so you can't tar nations as one entity so why should we be taken through a hard brexit and sever ties with the EU when not everyone wants it?
In 2011 when people were voting to elect the Scottish government, brexit wasn't on the table so it's not selling anyone short to say that wasn't considered in electing the SNP
The other point that kind of weakens your argument from my point of view is that there is no denying that Scotland does not want a tory government, so therefore having to accept their brexit strategy without any parliamentary scrutiny on a matter like this makes the system hard to swallow.

 

[Macro]

It was in the Indy Ref though?

I should add there's nothing wrong with having a strong nationalist Scottish Parliament making sure it gets the best deal for Scotland possible, frankly England could do with similar. It's the dragging up independence again which seems at best opportunistic whilst there's no effective Scottish opposition party. If Labour every recovers the SNP are unlikely to win a such a over whelming majority in the future so Sturgeon has a limited timescale and excuse to try for another ref.

I might even try the same thing if I was in her seat given the mechanics.

 

[Kaladon]

I like you, you're funny - let us know if you find your dummy again and can string a sentence together without having a temper tantrum because not everyone agrees with your divisive Nationalist propaganda.

I tried to start and wanted to keep a civil discussion. You started by just being insulting

Nationalists in "we're going to keep asking you this question until you get the answer right you idiots" shocker...

Just a little background. I never started off supporting the SNP. In fact until probably about 2015 i wouldn't give them the time of day (my own personal experiences with Alex Salmond not withstanding smug git that he is. Where as my cousin went to Uni with Sturgeon. Apparently she was known as "no Mates Nicola" back then) Having been involved in local politics in Glasgow and involved with "Young Labour" while Maria Fyfe was MP for Maryhill and with her involved in the "50-50 \ Yes-Yes campaign" to get a devolved parliament in the first place. I didn't feel Independence was necessary then. I also felt that after several centuries of what I believed to be a symbiotic relationship, that leaving the UK had to many unanswered questions

2010 I was not a independence supporter because of those concerns, even though I felt the union had gone from symbiotic to parasitic, the final straw was David Cameron's government and the realization that all of Scotland could have voted one way and greater london alone can nullify our voice. That was just too much, without a change in the voting system to let the nations in the union where the lower population nations can be heard, then why the **** would we want to stay? EVEL made that even worse. We cant vote re something in England but you can still vote to effect change in Scotland? How is this a fair and representative system?

Hell even if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all voted one way (approx 10.3M) we are drowned out by an increasingly xenophobic England (approx 54.8m). and your surprised there's a proportion of our population that want out?

 

[the_r_sole]

You quite

It was in the Indy Ref though?

You quoted a post where i was trying to explain that the indy ref couldn't have been postponed by the SNP to wait on the terms of brexit as the wheels were in motion long before it was even a possibility.
Even during the indy ref the remain vote was telling everyone that was the safe way to stay in the EU, i would say that very few Scots would have seen the brexit outcome coming at that point. Hardly any political commentators were giving it serious credibility at that point and really there has been a big shift since i would say. Calling people stupid for not seeing the unlikely result of a future referendum is a bit off considering... (Wasn't you i know but that was what i was responding to)

 

[Macro]

Hell even if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all voted one way (approx 10.3M) we are drowned out by an increasingly xenophobic England

And there's that typical Nationalist waffle trying to paint this as the evil English oppressing everyone else in the Union (which is Ironic given your use of "Xenophobic"). 38% of Scots voted for Brexit too or do they not count or are they slightly misguided and easily led Xenophobes? Actually don't worry, I suspect I know your answer to that.

 

[Macro]

You quite

You quoted a post where i was trying to explain that the indy ref couldn't have been postponed by the SNP to wait on the terms of brexit as the wheels were in motion long before it was even a possibility.
Even during the indy ref the remain vote was telling everyone that was the safe way to stay in the EU, i would say that very few Scots would have seen the brexit outcome coming at that point. Hardly any political commentators were giving it serious credibility at that point and really there has been a big shift since i would say. Calling people stupid for not seeing the unlikely result of a future referendum is a bit off considering... (Wasn't you i know but that was what i was responding to)

Fair enough, although the subsequent Brexit vote showed despite everything 38% of Scots still agreed with Brexit despite the massive campaign by the SNP who in effect are the sole political party in Scotland at the moment.

Ooooooorrrrr did the SNP secretly help vote for Brexit as they knew they could use that as an excuse for a second go at the Indy ref #justsayin'




I'm kidding!!! I'm kidding!!!

 

[Kaladon]

And there's that typical Nationalist waffle trying to paint this as the evil English oppressing everyone else in the Union (which is Ironic given your use of "Xenophobic"). 38% of Scots voted for Brexit too or do they not count or are they slightly misguided and easily led Xenophobes? Actually don't worry, I suspect I know your answer to that.

your country has had a 41% increase in hate crimes since the Brexit vote because all of a sudden these nutters think its ok. Media outlets trashing anyone who wants to stand up for EU nationals with established lifes anywhere in the UK and lets not even go near the refugee situation. My own partner (French) is that concerned such attitudes will spread north of the boarder and we shuld bugger off to Canada.

You don't think England is getting worse?

When it comes down to it 5% isn't the decisive vote unionists seem to think its. and post election analysis showed a good number of no voters where swayed by 2 factors. "the pledge" for all the joke that was and staying in the EU. Thats been proven to be nothing but a lie. You dont think 6% can be found in that?

As for the votes at home, Yeah your right. 38% did vote to leave. That's absolutely fine and they are entitled to that opinion. Frankly it would be boring if we all agreed! but your saying the 62% that voted to stay in Scotland and the 62% In Ireland should be ignored? Your saying they are slightly misguided and easily led europhiles? Actually don't worry, I suspect I know your answer to that.

 

[the_r_sole]

Fair enough, although the subsequent Brexit vote showed despite everything 38% of Scots still agreed with Brexit despite the massive campaign by the SNP who in effect are the sole political party in Scotland at the moment.

Ooooooorrrrr did the SNP secretly help vote for Brexit as they knew they could use that as an excuse for a second go at the Indy ref #justsayin'




I'm kidding!!! I'm kidding!!!

Hah!
Plenty of racist xenophobes up here too (38% apparently...)
The interesting thing is really the collapse of labour, they really couldn't get much worse up here, and look at the number of SNP MPs now too, they do think they are speaking for the whole of Scotland! There's no way if there was a credible Labour party they would be doing so well, also the lib dems really lost a lot of respect up here by going in with the Tories for a sniff of power.
The SNP have gained by default really but they really can't not go ahead and seek a referendum as it's what they stated they would do if there was a leave vote in the brexit ref. I don't think sturgeon thinks she will win, but it would be the end of her career if she didn't call it (and probably will be after another referendum anyway)

 

[Macro]

your country has had a 41% increase in hate crimes since the Brexit vote because all of a sudden these nutters think its ok. Media outlets trashing anyone who wants to stand up for EU nationals with established lifes anywhere in the UK and lets not even go near the refugee situation. My own partner (French) is that concerned such attitudes will spread north of the boarder and we shuld bugger off to Canada.

You don't think England is getting worse?.

Actually you've convinced me - Down with the hateful English oppressors!!!! by the way - who says I'm English?

 

[Vidar]

You are correct that Scotland couldn't just stay in the EU whilst England and Wales left. But that's for legal and bureaucratic reasons rather than a lack of willingness to admit Scotland on the part of the rest of the EU. Solutions have been discusses and the likely outcome as I understand it would be to do some sort of fast-track admittance to get Scotland in under its own auspices very quickly.

Without checking the link, I think someone has posted a reference to the fact that Scotland wouldn't be fast tracked back into the EU. I think what really needs to happen before any referendum is called is for all the facts to be on the table. A commitment from the EU as to whether Scotland could rejoin, if so, when and a real look at finances but alas I think the nationalist agenda which is rightly angry at Westminster will play against fears founded or otherwise to give weight to their arguments validity.

I really hope that Scotland remains!

 

[Kaladon]

Without checking the link, I think someone has posted a reference to the fact that Scotland wouldn't be fast tracked back into the EU. I think what really needs to happen before any referendum is called is for all the facts to be on the table. A commitment from the EU as to whether Scotland could rejoin, if so, when and a real look at finances but alas I think the nationalist agenda which is rightly angry at Westminster will play against fears founded or otherwise to give weight to their arguments validity.

I really hope that Scotland remains!

Honestly im not prepared to say that fast track is or isnt an option. Too many conflicting statments by EU officials, how the the country most linky to oppose it (spain due the the Castillian situation) had had its ruling party's MSP say they wont veto it.

 

[abbviper]

If there is another referendum and individual regions/islands vote to remain part of Great Britain, will those islands/regoins be allowed to remain? Afterall if they vote no, why should be forced kicking an screaming out of GB?

 

[Kaladon]

Actually you've convinced me - Down with the hateful English oppressors!!!! by the way - who says I'm English?

forgive me if i dont trust that statement based on the quote in yer sig

 

[Macro]

Hah!
Plenty of racist xenophobes up here too (38% apparently...)
The interesting thing is really the collapse of labour, they really couldn't get much worse up here, and look at the number of SNP MPs now too, they do think they are speaking for the whole of Scotland! There's no way if there was a credible Labour party they would be doing so well, also the lib dems really lost a lot of respect up here by going in with the Tories for a sniff of power.
The SNP have gained by default really but they really can't not go ahead and seek a referendum as it's what they stated they would do if there was a leave vote in the brexit ref. I don't think sturgeon thinks she will win, but it would be the end of her career if she didn't call it (and probably will be after another referendum anyway)

Couldn't agree more - certainly can't blame Sturgeon for doing what she's openly said time and time again is her firm political belief whether you agree with it or not. I do think it would be a shame if it ended up being the break up of the Union before we've had a reasonable time to assess the effect of Brexit on Scotland, but ultimately if that's the will of the Scottish people no one should try to stand in the way.

I'd have liked to have seen maybe 10 years post Brexit to allow Scots to make a truly informed decision based on where things were heading for Scotland with a post Brexit Union in a slightly more balanced over time way but completely understand there's no way politically the SNP could wait for that. Personally I'd still urge Scots to take a breath and stick with the Union though. A vote to remain could always be changed in 10 years, a vote to leave is likely forever.

 

[Kaladon]

If there is another referendum and individual regions/islands vote to remain part of Great Britain, will those islands/regoins be allowed to remain? After all if they vote no, why should be forced kicking an screaming out of GB?

your just saying that because you want "Sealand" back

(i am of course joking)

 

[Kaladon]

a vote to leave is likely forever.

very true, however point me to a country granted their independence that wanted to go back to the way things where?

 

[Kaladon]

Oh and for the record, the only actual England hating you will ever see from me is at the rugby (and thats just for fun)...... Especially after this weekend, Jebus **** that hurt!!!!!

 

[abbviper]

your just saying that because you want "Sealand" back

(i am of course joking)

I like the name Sealand, perhaps that is what it could be called. Would probably still have a better rugby team than Scotland.

(I am of course not joking)

 

[Macro]

very true, however point me to a country granted their independence that wanted to go back to the way things where?

Well you seem to want to leave one union which imposes laws on you based on the all up interests of the Union (some you win, some you lose as does everyone no matter how small the group of people) and negotiate to sign up to another Union which will do the same and which Scotland would arguably have even less influence albeit without those pesky English top hat wearing types.

FWIW I also strongly disagree with your use of the word "granted", it's not for anyone in the union to "grant" Scotland independence any more than it would be for Scotland, Wales and NI to "grant" England Independence if that was the option. It would be the Scottish peoples choice to withdraw from a Union, not a grant from some sort of colonial oppressor.

Frankly the US at the moment might well consider renouncing independence and rejoining us on this side of the Atlantic

 

[Kaladon]

I like the name Sealand, perhaps that is what it could be called. Would probably still have a better rugby team than Scotland.

(I am of course not joking)

Oh come on, We had a damn fine start then we lost 1/3 of our team to injury, we still beat France. The England game was Brutal.