Scrappage Scam Extended

[nanospider]

Just wondering if this will also end up hurting garages, those who would have been repairing and MOTing these scrapped cars will have less clients for a year or two?

 

[BigglesPiP]

Just wondering if this will also end up hurting garages, those who would have been repairing and MOTing these scrapped cars will have less clients for a year or two?

Yep, you wouldn't believe what a mess it's making of certain parts of the motor trade. Even the value of a genuine scrap car.

 

[stockhausen]

I am with Fox and all others here that it makes me sick that PERFECTLY acceptable cars are scrapped. It's such a waste.

"Boosting" new car sales by destroying something else.

Have you ever been down to your local dump?

Ever noticed the vast array of fridges, freezers, furniture, TVs, audio systems, CRTs, computers, printers, etc. that are due to be "destroyed"?

Are you similarly opposed to these manifestations of rampant pointless wasteful consumerism

And you don't even get money in return

 

[Sin_Chase]

Have you ever been down to your local dump?

Ever noticed the vast array of fridges, freezers, furniture, TVs, audio systems, CRTs, computers, printers, etc. that are due to be "destroyed"?

Are you similarly opposed to these manifestations of rampant pointless wasteful consumerism

And you don't even get money in return

How many 26" LCDs do you see in the scrapyard while their 40" replacement sits in the lounge? Most of the crap at our dump is unserviceable/worthless scrap. Nothing wrong with plenty of the cars being destroyed in the scrappage scheme, it's only because of this magical 2 grand you get on a NEW purchase that is the inventive, obviously. 2 grand you could get by buying nearly new and selling you old car to potentially someone who could use exactly what you would have otherwise scrapped.

 

[Dolph]

How many 26" LCDs do you see in the scrapyard while their 40" replacement sits in the lounge? Most of the crap at our dump is unserviceable/worthless scrap. Nothing wrong with plenty of the cars being destroyed in the scrappage scheme, it's only because of this magical 2 grand you get on a NEW purchase that is the inventive, obviously. 2 grand you could get by buying nearly new and selling you old car to potentially someone who could use exactly what you would have otherwise scrapped.

While anecdotes are not data, my experiences are much more inline with Stockhausen's than yours. The tip is full of perfectly servicable items that people have replaced, because there is no worthwhile second hand market to speak of.

 

[Sin_Chase]

But there is a worthwhile second hand market for Cars.

Any new driver who does not have money to burn or is not rich is looking squarely at this market. My 1st car was something that would be something that would end up on the scrapyard in this scrappage scheme. I would wager that a decent percentage of us here were also in the same position for a first car.

Coming across a first car is not exactly super difficult but it is not super easy either. It was not for me, nor was it for my sister. She ended up with something not really worth what it was because of insurance constraints and what was available, not going to get any better with all the options going to the tip.

 

[BigglesPiP]

Have you ever been down to your local dump?

Ever noticed the vast array of fridges, freezers, furniture, TVs, audio systems, CRTs, computers, printers, etc. that are due to be "destroyed"?

Are you similarly opposed to these manifestations of rampant pointless wasteful consumerism

And you don't even get money in return

Who wants a CRT? Nobody, this is why the pile amounts without a government scrappage scheme.

Who wants a £500 hatchback? A lot of people, they stay in use until the government sticks its finger in.

 

[Locky]

just had to post it...

LOL

I wish they would introduce a similar scheme for girlfriends.

And another LOL

 

[dovey]

I too thought it was madness that these cars HAVE to be scrapped.

A mates parents scrapped a mk 4 polo for a yaris, whilst the polo had seen better days it only had 60k on the clock and had a fair bit more life left in it.

It just seems such a waste, it would have made an ideal first car or cheap run about.

 

[Overlag]

my mate is happy, hes getting £4100 for a F reg Mini.....

 

[Lum]

And they still can.

What's your point?

Well I only just got my "new" car because the current owner couldn't bear to scrap a perfectly good car.

Yup, I'm finally about to scrap my crappy J reg Volvo 940 saloon, the one I turned up to the RR in with a blown headgasket and have still been driving, now without 3rd or 5th gears. This is the kind of car that should be destroyed under the scrappage scheme but since it's the family's 3rd car serving purely as a backup car and a load hauller (we basically run RAID3 cars ) I'm not spending any more than 3 figures on it.

The replacement is an L reg Volvo 940 Wentworth estate, HPT auto (with aircon, yay!) which the owner wanted 500 quid for on the assurance it would go to someone who would look after it. Knocked him down to 400 after pulling the CEL codes revealing the need for a new Lambda sensor, oh and there's a water leak which turned out to be a cheap hose. Lambda is coming off my old car.

So yeah the guy who could afford to look after his car pretty well (it certainly doesn't look 16 years old) and buy a new car could've scrapped this perfectly good car and I'd be stuck with my falling apart shed.

Now if anyone can come up with some wangle to use my old Volvo to help buy their new car, I'll happily sell it to you for £350, once I'm done stripping bits off it. Hope you don't need glass or electric window motors.


Anyway, do these cars seriously get crushed and not dumped into scrap yards for people to pick parts off? That's even worse than the US "Cash for Clunkers" scheme where they seize the engine by replacing the oil with sand and revving it to death. For something that's being dressed up as an environmental benefit, why are they preventing the recycling of perfectly servicible parts.

 

[panthro]

Anyone read this months EVO fast fleet? They stated (regarding their RX8 P3) that Mazda would knock £6000 off a P3 bringing it down to around £18k if you went through the scrappage scheme with them. Now that is a pretty good deal, it would be nice to see more sports car manufacturers offer similar deals. Ok fair enough the RX8 isnt safe from excessive depreciation, but for £18k, a brand new P3 variant is a bargain....for those that want a brand new car.

 

[stockhausen]

But there is a worthwhile second hand market for Cars.
...
Coming across a first car is not exactly super difficult but it is not super easy either. It was not for me, nor was it for my sister.
...

That seems a pretty fair comment. Most young people are not car "specialists"; in my experience guys want something that looks (and sounds) good, girls want something reliable; neither group wants to spend days or hours sorting out problems, they do not want an unfashionable banger of questionable reliability and/or running cost; parents almost invariably want their cherished offspring to have something slow and safe so that they don't end up as statistics. New cars may well have problems but from personal experience, it is not that easy for the average driver to spot well concealed defects in a 2nd hand car.

If the average user buys a car based on an advert in the local paper, they have no way of knowing anything much about it at all. From a forecourt, they are likely to get some sort of guarantee.

Whatever people may say, write or think, for the average driver, selling an older "banger" privately and negotiating a decent discount is not that easy and on a popular small run-around such as a Ka, Yaris, Clio, Panda, Citroen C1, Hyundai i10, etc. is probably not going to work out cheaper than scrapping such a "banger" and is almost certain to be more hassle.

When I came to scrapping my 15 year old car which was becoming unreliable, expensive to maintain and MOT and which had no airbags, ABS or any other significant safety features, I did actually look quite hard at trying to get a better deal, either as a trade-in or by selling it privately; at the time, it just wasn't possible. Added to that, for reasons of conscience I did have real reservations about selling it on to someone else.

...
For something that's being dressed up as an environmental benefit, why are they preventing the recycling of perfectly serviceable parts.

Actually, I don't think that the Government is making much of an issue about the environmental "advantages" of the scrappage scheme, probably because they aren't that convincing; if the Government were that concerned about the environmental impact of new car sales under the scheme, they would have imposed a cap on the CO2 emissions of eligible new cars. The main justification for the scheme is to stimulate the economy and don't forget that manufacturers, suppliers and the trade are wildly enthusiastic about the scheme and pushed very hard for it to be introduced and then extended.

As to preventing the recycling of perfectly serviceable parts, are they? I don't know whether the cars are stripped for reusable parts before being destroyed, it would certainly seem to me to make a lot of sense if they were but I suspect that the trade would rather sell new parts :shrug:

 

[Wicksta]

lol Robbie G

 

[Berger]

Supply of these cars is being reduced as many perfectly reliable, serviceable and safe examples with many years of life left in them are being forcibily destroyed. The amount of clean, tidy 1-2 owner cars that have been owned by decent families for a long period of time is decreasing as they are being used for 'scrappage'. In the mean time, the crappy smokey banger examples with 17 previous owners none of which has kept it more than 6 months are still out there because they dont qualify..

Scrappage has had a very bad effect on the cheap car market as the better examples of the typical 'banger' are dissapearing (Remember - you need to have had the car for more than a year and most of the better kept examples are those people have owned for a while rather than a short period of time), this reduced level of supply is pushing prices up. I personally couldnt care less but what about those buying a first car?

Quoted for truth! Its a terrible waste of excellent older cars which have been looked after for the past 10+ years.

As some of you already know, my girlfriend traded in her '96 1.25 Fez (family owned from brand new, 85k on the clock, been to Ford/decent garage for all the work, 4 recent continentals etc) for a brand spanking Fiat 500.

However in this case it did make sense, from browsing on the Fiat Forum, nobody seemed able to squeeze a deal out of the dealers, they just weren't knocking any money off at all (that or they all suck at haggling).

So she paid full list price for the car with options, got a little off some of the extras as the salesman didn't know the fitted/unfitted price differences from the brochure so paid the unfitted price (and they came fitted) and got some free Fiat mats.

Browsing AT and PH, the cheapest 1.2 Lounge is 8950 and that's an 08 with 12k on the clock, so lost half the warranty already. Plus my girlfriend specced hers up with more options, parking sensors and esp to name a few.

With the scrappage discount, she paid less than the above for her car, so she couldn't buy a used one for less even if she wanted!

Due to the type of the car they are, they are more individual than your standard eurobox so you would be hard pushed to find one which was specced to your tastes.

 

[Participant]

b) LOL @ your attempt at an insult. A wreck, great. At least its not the sort of thing you normally find yourself being miffed about being offered at the airport hire car desk

The reason that they offer Golfs at hire desks is that they are reliable, comfortable, and classless. If I was offered a MkVI GT at an airport hire car desk I'd be perfectly happy with it. If I was offered a four year old yuppie moile, I'd be slightly concerned that me and the other occupants would find ourselves being towed to a Greek garage for a replacement.

The UK factory car workers who buillt your Golf?

No, of course not them, the UK factory workers that build cars made in the UK. The ones that you failed to consider in your first post.

You got a new Golf, thats great. I'm glad you love it. Why should the taxpayer have helped fund it, though?

Because the motor industry in the UK extends far beyond the factories that actually produce the cars. There are hundreds of trickle-down industries in the UK that will benefit, irrespective of the country of manufacture.

An N reg Polo, for example, with MOT (regardless of 'pending' work - most £1k car buyers could not see this coming anyway so you'd still get a tidy sum) is worth £500+ and the rest of the 'discount' you'd have got off the car anyway.

- So most £1k car buyers wouldn't have noticed a blowing exhaust, rattling tappets, and smoke from the valve stem seals? Maybe £1k means less to you than most people.
- I could not have gotten £500 for this car, with or without a MOT, and even if I had, I'd still have been better off scrapping it than selling it. £1000 - £500 = £500 last time I checked.
- The rest of the discount I could not 'have got off the car anyway'. That's simply wrong.

Isn't a valid MOT a prerequisite for a car to qualify? You know the test the makes sure a car is roadworthy and meets emissions standards set out by the appropriate government agency?

ANY car with a valid MOT is more or less guaranteed to be worth more than £500 and you can easily save over £1000 on a new car by buying it pre-registered. There are better deals but the government is conning the public into thinking otherwise.

But I got £4.5k off my car? Please, explain to me how I could have gotten £4.5k off by selling the Polo privately then negotiating with a dealer. You think VW are offering £4k discounts on new Golf 6s?

Robbie G answered his own argument earlier in the thread.

The scheme is designed to help car manufacturers. And no scheme designed to help someone selling something is going to also be beneficial to those people buying that something. It is simply impossible for for something simply financial, as this is, to aid both the seller and the buyer. It is a zero sum game, one side wins, the other looses.

You're forgetting the government in your equation. The government loses so that the car industry and the consumer are better off compared to if they had purchased the car before the scheme.

People who wouldn't have bought a new car, are now buying a new car, spending more money than they would have done without the scheme. Yes you have a shiny new car, but the scheme is to financially aid the car industry, and financially you are worse off than you were before.

No, I'm financially better off if you consider the capital value of my asset. I could click my fingers and sell if for a grand more than I paid for it. However I agree that someone that wouldn't have otherwise bought a new car anyway is worse off in cash terms than they would have been had the scheme never happened. But that's their problem. As it happens we were looking at spending ~£20k on some kind of car anyway. Were it not for the scrappage 'scam' rolleyes, we would have almost certainly bought a one year old second hand car.

I agree that the scrappage scheme is flawed in many ways. The NPV to the UK of the scheme may be negative, it may have benefited foreign countries more than it's benefited the UK, UK taxpayers may be disgruntled that people like me are scrapping cars that go ok and benefiting from decent discounts paid for by your hard labour, people may be scrapping perfectly useable cars that could have been donated to a less well off family. ALL I am saying is that:

- it benefited me

- it has and will continue to benefit the UK motor industry

 

[flat-6]

The whole thing is corrupt - I love how right wing press are all anti-interventionism when it suits them but when the car industry that has been saddled with over production for years is hurting they expect the government to prop it up.

Look at the big winners here; Hyundai, FIAT and the like. The margins on these cars must be low to start with since even before scrappage you could buy a Panda for £5995; the extra sales just keeps some Italians employed for a bit longer. As for the Koreans, much of our taxpayer money is going overseas to build these econoboxes that will be lucky if they last five years.

Don't even get me started on the corrupt environmental arguments for this - e.g. lets build a small car in Korea and ship it all the way around the world while we take in a perfectly good Fiesta and scrap it. Remember the Fiesta's environmental impact from production was done a long time ago.

The scheme has just brought forward demand; when it stops there'll be a huge slump in car sales, and the problem of too many cars being made (in Europe) for the number of buyers will return.

 

[Janesy B]

Browsing AT and PH, the cheapest 1.2 Lounge is 8950 and that's an 08 with 12k on the clock, so lost half the warranty already. Plus my girlfriend specced hers up with more options, parking sensors and esp to name a few.

Parking sensors on a 500?!

 

[flat-6]

Robbie G - srsly only numberplate number snobs would rather be given an 09 Golf at an airport than Fox's minter 530i Sport. Non-car people would think it could be new.

 

[JRS]

Parking sensors on a 500?!

To be honest, I can see it being a good idea on the 500 for a lot of drivers. Rear visibility ain't one of its strong points