Sourdough and starters

[famas]

Solely all things sourdough, recipes, tips and tricks!

I know there is a bread thread all ready but as sourdough is such a broad subject I thought it would be good to have its own thread.

I've just started out with my first ever sourdough starter.
As I usually bake at least once a week I thought it would be nice to try some active yeast culture instead of the 7g fast action yeast packets.

Its been fermenting for 6 days now and is starting to smell nice and sweet, I think its nearly ready to use in a loaf.



Started with 50g of strong white bread flour and 50g water.
day 2 I added another 50g flour and 50g water.
after that I removed 50g of starter and added 50g flour, 50g water for the rest of the week.

Maybe not a true sourdough stater as I couldn't find any rye flour. Going to have another look today.

So far I've made sourdough pancakes which where lovely.



and last night make a sourdough pizza



Again was fantastic!

Going to be trying all sorts of different baking as I've read you can use sourdough starter in pretty much any baked good to replace dried active yeast.

Any one got any tips or recipes for anything they have made with sourdough starter post away!

 

[famas]

First go at a sourdough loaf didn't come out to well.
Seems I used the starter too soon after taking it out of the fridge.
From what I've read I need to feed it and leave it 24 hrs on the worktop before using.

I got very little rise from the starter after 6 hours so the loaf was very dense. Also forgot to score the top, not that it would have made much difference.



It's a shame as it had a lovely flavour.



Going to have another go tomorrow and hopefully note down the recipe.

 

[FrenchTart]

I've done a lot of sourdough stuff myself so this is definitely something I'm interested in. Currently in the middle of a house move/renovating a house but once done I'll post some pics/thoughts

 

[robj20]

Did try it years ago but don't make that much so would be a huge waste of flour really.
I like to use absolute minimum dried yeast and a long cold prove to get plenty of flavour. Pizza dough for instance gets an initial prove of 24 hours then balled up then 48 hours before I use it.

 

[famas]

Funnily enough I always prove my pizza dough for at least 24hrs in the fridge but recently due to less time I've been making the dough on the night and fast proving it in the oven on the prove setting. This is a 40c temperature with steam.

I make the dough then fast prove for 40 mins, knock it back then fast prove again for 40 mins and its ready to use.
The dough seems to be far superior to my longer prove method.

I normally only bake once a week so keeping the starter in the fridge and feeding it once a week shouldn't be to bad, I just have to remember to take it out a couple of days in advance!

looking forward to some other creations from you guys.

 

[robj20]

Funnily enough I always prove my pizza dough for at least 24hrs in the fridge but recently due to less time I've been making the dough on the night and fast proving it in the oven on the prove setting. This is a 40c temperature with steam.

I make the dough then fast prove for 40 mins, knock it back then fast prove again for 40 mins and its ready to use.
The dough seems to be far superior to my longer prove method.

I normally only bake once a week so keeping the starter in the fridge and feeding it once a week shouldn't be to bad, I just have to remember to take it out a couple of days in advance!

looking forward to some other creations from you guys.

Might give it ago, our microwave has a prove setting at 40c.

 

[famas]

Cool, let us know how you get on.
Can you set a timer for 40 mins on your micro wave? seems a long time for a microwave.

If you have an electric oven you should be able to set it to 35-40c on the standard "hot air" setting. Helps to warm the oven and pizza stone before turning it right up when you're ready to bake.

I had my second go at sourdough pancakes this morning. The starter is over 2 weeks old now and the flavour seems to be getting better.



Just had a bit of maple syrup and a pinch of sugar, they where nice!

Recipe was

75g sourdough starter
75g plain flour
75g semi skimmed milk
1 large egg
1/2 tsp bicarb
pinch of sea salt
pinch of sugar

Just put it all into a bowl and mix really well, then leave to sit for 30 mins before using.

This is enough to make two thick 9" pancakes. If you like your pancakes thinner add a little more milk.

Off to have another go at the sourdough loaf now.

 

[jpaul]

I always make a poulis with my sourdough starter, so ~ 20%/40g of the flour + water/60g premixed with 3tbs starter left overnight outside fridge,
and then typically 2.5 hours in bread machine with 210gflour/80gwater/salt/olive, for pizza dough on that day, but still viable/maturing if fridged for 72hours.

Did try it years ago but don't make that much so would be a huge waste of flour really.

if you are making at least once a week, no waste of flour, and, even if fortnightly still cheaper than yeast
I use 70g flour and 100g water on every mother(well teenager) refresh. (plain flour 45p/1.5Kg)

 

[famas]

Indeed, I'm just using a cheap bag of strong white bread flour for my stater and it seems to be going well.

Also if you use a large enough jar there is no need to discard any starter when feeding once the starter is established. I think the main reason people discard starter is so it doesn't spill over as their starter rises.
I've not discarded any starter in over a week and must have got around 800-900g. My jar was starting to get full so I've given 200g to my mother as she was interested to give it a go too.

Just finished my second loaf.

recipe
125g very strong white bread flour
62g dark rye flour
62g wholemeal flour
5g sea salt
130g starter
130g warm tap water

Started with 130g starter in a large bowl.



Next weighed out 125g of white flour and added 25g of it to the starter



I added a drop of warm water to the starter and flour then mixed it well and left it for 30 mins.



Next I weighed out 62g or rye flour and 62g of wholemeal flour and added it to the rest of the white flour with 5g of sea salt.



Next I added 130g of warm tap water to the starter and mixed well.



Then added the starter mix to the flour mix



And kneaded for a good 15 mins, then placed into a lightly oiled bowl.



It's going to prove now over night. I'm going to fold it after 6 hours and bake it first thing in the morning.

I want to experiment with my steam over to come on in the early hours so I have fresh bread ready for the morning but this will take a bit of trial and error I think.

 

[jpaul]

Also if you use a large enough jar there is no need to discard any starter when feeding once the starter is established. I think the main reason people discard starter is so it doesn't spill over as their starter rises.

I always transfer starter to a new container(clinged bowl) every couple of weeks, to avoid any possible scenario with mould gowth say where
sour dough material might be less strong/acidic/poorly-mixed on the periphery of bowl, and also use same regular bleached white flour to sustain it,
if you added a wholemeal/stoneground flour say, could upset its ecosystem or introduce competing yeasts
- its a teenager, also with air-miles, as I say.

 

[famas]

Ah I see, good to know. I'll grab another jar when I'm out so I can keep it fresh.

 

[robj20]

I always make a poulis with my sourdough starter, so ~ 20%/40g of the flour + water/60g premixed with 3tbs starter left overnight outside fridge,
and then typically 2.5 hours in bread machine with 210gflour/80gwater/salt/olive, for pizza dough on that day, but still viable/maturing if fridged for 72hours.


if you are making at least once a week, no waste of flour, and, even if fortnightly still cheaper than yeast
I use 70g flour and 100g water on every mother(well teenager) refresh. (plain flour 45p/1.5Kg)

So much more expensive than yeast, your way 2.1p per loaf.
I typically use around 2g of dried yeast per batch of pizza dough. That works out at 0.0262p per batch at the price i paid, and the batch makes 5 12" pizzas. Maybe if i started using more but its only pizza at the minute and the taste could justify it.

Can you freeze sour dough starter, get it nice and bubbling, freeze it then when you want to use it defrost a portion and feed it, warm place for 24 hours then make your dough.

 

[jpaul]

So much more expensive than yeast, your way 2.1p per loaf.
I typically use around 2g of dried yeast per batch of pizza dough. That works out at 0.0262p per batch at the price i paid, and the batch makes 5 12" pizzas. Maybe if i started using more but its only pizza at the minute and the taste could justify it.

Can you freeze sour dough starter, get it nice and bubbling, freeze it then when you want to use it defrost a portion and feed it, warm place for 24 hours then make your dough.

yes you can freeze it , but I would say 24hr defrost in fridge and then 24 hours ferment @room as a poulis, before you could make dough.

your yeast is cheap that's true, with the frequency I make, using starter 1.5 times a week it comes out free .. I rarely buy bread
the taste on the other hand , and the subjectively better digestibility of the bread compelling though ?

the 250g of strong white pizza flour is probably going to be minimum 15p too, 90p bag... and the good stoneground stuff for a 500g bread loaf 2-3x

 

[famas]

Well the second attempt was a complete disaster.

I don't have a proper banneton or proving bowl so I just put the dough into a ceramic dish to prove over night.

When I came back to it in the morning it had stuck to the dish and upon trying to turn it out the loaf ripped in half.

That was the end of that.

So third attempt using a slightly different recipe this time.

500g very strong white bread flour
250g starter
15 salt
370ml water

made it the same was as before but this time did zero kneading. Instead I folded the dough every 30 mins a total of 6 times then left it to prove in a well floured bowl over night.

Morning came and I could see the loaf had risen well but I wasn't going to chance getting it out the bowl so cooked it in the bowl.

20 mins at 200c with full steam.
then a further 40 mins at 160c with no steam.

And finally an edible sourdough loaf.



Inside texture isn't too bad. It has a nice crunchy top and sides and the inside is almost crumpet like.
I think It's a little too salty so will reduce the salt next time. but over all I'm happy with it.



I don't think I was using enough starter on the first 2 loaves as I didn't get much rise out of them.

I also use just white flour as I wasn't sure if my start was reacting badly to the addition of rye and wholemeal?
As its an all white flour starter, Or maybe it was just that I wasn't using enough.

I might try a rye starter as well but rye flour is a lot more expensive.

 

[lego]

My boss was lucky enough to do a week at Moulin Paul Dupis who supply our flour. What he learnt there has totally changed how we make our sourdough and the results we get.

The main thing was (and many, if not all of you will disagree) is they use yeast! That's right, I said it.

They said that you get flavour from the starter so you don't need it totally for the prove. I was shocked at this, and flat out refused to use it at first, but slowly came around to the idea and incorporated it into my method.

They use two starters there (at Moulin Dupis), one is a 50/50 mix of T55 flour and water (this starter was brought back and is now what we use) which has a mild sour but more yoghurty aroma to it. The other is a 50/50 mix of T110 flour and water, which has a more traditional sourdough.

Again they use a little yeast in in all their bread so unless you wanted a "pure natural leaven loaf" perhaps using a little yeast could help.

Here's how I tend to do it at work, and I basically replicate it at home when I bake.

I start with a 24hr Autolyse (flour and water brought together and simply left in a proving tub) (Use the rule of 56 here)
At this time I'll feed my starter, another tip here from MPD is 50/50 of flour and water, water at 40-45 degrees Celsius (I had noticeable improvements in my bread right away from doing this)

Next day: Add yeast / mother-dough (if you have some) / starter / autolyse mix together and mix
after 5 mins add salt
Mix and increase hydration
Check mix periodically for the "stain-glass effect" (quick google here)

Once stain-glass achieved, proving tub for 1 hr
Split and lightly ball
after 15 mins shape and place in banneton
chill overnight

Bake and EAT!!


Baking times are purely down to what oven you have available, at home i'll use a combo cooker, in work we have a Combi oven (No bread oven unfortunately)

Just with a skim of the posts @famas my advice would be, check your ratios (seems to be a tad too much salt),
Get your oven hotter for the initial cook (aim for 250c for the first 10 on steam, then 220 for 10 on dry, then 200 for 15 on dry)
Get yourself a banneton and flip the dough onto a hot tray
Get some good bacon!!!

 

[famas]

double post

 

[famas]

Cheers for the info lego, interesting that you add yeast to your sourdough.

What yeast do you use and what ratio?

Unfortunately my ovens max temperature is 230c though I did try it at these temps I found the top too crisp for my liking.
I like a nice crunch but not too burnt.

I found cooking for 15 mins at 200c with steam then reducing to 160-180 without steam for the duration made a nice loaf.

Also your right about the salt, the last loaf was a bit too salty so I will reduce it next time.

Today I made sweet waffles.

Recipe
2 medium eggs
300ml milk
225g self raising flour
1/2 tea spoon baking powder
pinch of seat salt
40g caster sugar
100g unsalted butter, melted and cooled.
125g sourdough starter

Crack the eggs into a bowl and whisk in the milk.
Add the dry ingredients and mix well
Add the sourdough start and mix
Lastly add the melted butter and fold into the mix. Don't over mix at this point as the waffles may come out tough.




Added a little icing sugar and nutella



They turned out lovely. Nice and crispy on the outside and fluffy on the inside.



What to make next???

 

[lego]

What yeast do you use and what ratio?

We use a standard bakers fresh yeast, comes in 1kg blocks, most supermarket bakers will use it and I've found they're more than happy to give you some. We're currently using about 0.6% for the yeast and 10% for the starter.

 

[famas]

Cheers for the info. I've not tried using fresh yeast before but always fancied giving it a go. It's just getting hold of a small portion is the problem. I'll ask in the supermarket next time I go.

Friday/Saturday night is pizza night. Second go at the sourdough base using the improved recipe and wow that was the best pizza I've had in a long time. I think it was almost restaurant quality. I'm never eating supermarket pizza's again.



Crust was nice and crunchy, maybe could have charred a bit more. Also needed to dust off the excess flour but the dough was quite sticky.



inside was light and chewy. I went easy on the toppings to avoid the base going soggy.

it was lovely.

 

[jpaul]

I start with a 24hr Autolyse (flour and water brought together and simply left in a proving tub) (Use the rule of 56 here)
....
Next day: Add yeast / mother-dough (if you have some) / starter / autolyse mix together and mix

I presume you add the sourdough at the start ? or not ? a google on rule 56 did not give me anything

Today I made sweet waffles.
....
Lastly add the melted butter and fold into the mix. Don't over mix at this point as the waffles may come out tough.

Are you leaving these and pizza base overnight ?
aren't the on the day recipes compromising on the development of the sourdough flavour, saturating all the flour/gluten and giving maximum co2; otherwise you just use the sourdough as a simpler raising agent (like baking powder) .

Pizza dough I make is always a minimum 24 hour exercise, and you get big bubbles in the soft dough too (pictures in pizza thread)
simlarly for waffles, I have not made these but eg. the definitive liege waffles https://liegewaffle.wordpress.com/liege-waffle-recipe-liege-gaufre-recette-metric/.