The anti Israel = anti semitism agenda

[NVP]

What am I missing with the following:


Israel have been pushing their anti-isreal=anti-semitism angle quite hardcore the past couple of years.

They have publicised a new definition of antisemitism and have managed to get governments to listen.

Now they promote the fact Jews in other countries get attacked and use it as a way of influencing that foreign country to retrain its police/teachers etc in the new definition, to push their agenda through right from the top.



But... What is this agenda? Is it to concrete Israel as its own permanent country? I thought that was already the case. Is it to make us feel less bad about Palestine? Doesn't matter how bad we feel no one with power cares enough to stop it.

So... Why? What am I missing? Or do I just need sleep?

 

[Jokester]

By blurring the lines between anti-semitism and legitimate criticism of the Israeli state's behaviour they can silence their critics, especially if it's also backed by the law in the respective countries. Even without the law backing it, just the social stigma can be enough for people to self censor criticism of Israel if they think enough people buy into it as anti-semitism.

 

[NVP]

Damn... That's genius. They reverse the current stigma by claiming the identity of the first.

 

[Caracus2k]

Its complicated.

The anti Israel Boycott Divestment and sanctions brigade are often rather inconsistent in their outrage. For all its failings Israel remains a democratic state in a middle east with plenty of dictators and despots and a good argument can be made that the Arabs/Muslims who are citizens of Israel generally have far better rights than their neighbor's in other surrounding states do.

If the anti Israel BDS lot were really concerned about (universal) human rights and welfare they really would not have to look far elsewhere to find more egregious states.

The foundation of the modern state if Israel is one founded partly in bloodshed and injustice but people often forget or are unaware this was perpetrated by many sides. Hundreds of thousands of Jews fled surrounding, majority Muslim, states around the time of the foundation of the modern state of Israel under threat of genocide if they remained themselves. They fled leaving properties and belongings that were seized from them by their former host countries who had not protected them.

The treatment of Palestinians is obviously bad but yet what is to be done? The Palestinian people have elected a terrorist government, teach their children to hate Jews, and no one with half a brain really believes that the destruction of the state of Israel isn't their primary intended goal of Hamas (who have strangely not held any further elections since talking over power over a decade ago)….. and with the Jewish population to be liquidated or exiled as a result. The potential of a two state solution has often been there from the Israeli side but progress was never likely to be made with a people so thoroughly committed at the ballot box and in action to the destruction of Israel and its Jewish inhabitants.

There are certainly issues with the Israeli side with an section of the population believing their ownership of the land is the result of a divine pact (when no evidence can be found of the alleged wanderings of the Israelites from Egypt to the promised land) and with others cynically exploiting the situation to set up illegal settlements and seize land.

So one has to be very conscious when seeking to criticize Israel and its Jewish inhabitants and supporters of the pitfalls and potential for allegations of wider anti Semitism.

 

[mmj_uk]

The thing is those demanding the right to criticise Israel (lefties basically) without being accused of anti-semitism are usually the first to sling around accusations of Islamophobia/racism whenever anyone (usually people on the right) criticises Islam. I support being able to criticise both and people should attack the argument with a counter-argument rather than devolving things into infantile name calling as a way to shut down debate entirely.

 

[Teh_Next]

Its complicated.

For all its failings Israel remains a democratic state in a middle east with plenty of dictators and despots

Hmmm, a democratic choice of zionsim or zionsim.

Democratic my left and right buttock. The "non Jewish" vote ie: Arab vote is only 20% of the entire electorate, an electorate who will probably not even vote as they most likely consider voting a legitimisation of their own suppression. The biggest "despots" and " dictators" is the Israeli state.

 

[Teh_Next]

The thing is those demanding the right to criticise Israel .

So, we have to "demand" criticising Israel as a right? We don't have it as default that we can criticise Israel? We have to DEMAND that right? ********

 

[Caracus2k]

Hmmm, a democratic choice of zionsim or zionsim.

Democratic my left and right buttock. The "non Jewish" vote ie: Arab vote is only 20% of the entire electorate, an electorate who will probably not even vote as they most likely consider voting a legitimisation of their own suppression. The biggest "despots" and " dictators" is the Israeli state.

I notice you ignored or at least didn't address the part where I pointed out that Arab Israelis all too often have better human rights in general than they would have in surrounding states.....

Like is said the BDS lot are a bit selective in their outrage. Being in a voting block 20% the size of the population is one thing but then we have Hamas who have 'forgotten/ neglected' to hold elections ever since they came into power.

Now I suggest you grab both of your buttocks and go do some research on what happens to minorities/dissenters when they protest the ruling establishment in Israel and surrounding countries and report back.

Because Israeli Arabs can be quite (pro)active in participation in wider protests against perceived issues with their ruling establishment

Thousands of protesters gathered on Saturday evening for a mass demonstration outside the Tel Aviv Museum against looming legislative efforts by the incoming coalition that would grant Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immunity from prosecution and radically limit the powers of the Supreme Court.

Both Arab-Israeli political parties announced Saturday afternoon that they, too, would participate

Where as the alternative in the combined area aren't exactly known for allowing dissent

Hamas violently suppresses Gaza economic protests

Gaza’s rulers, who back Israeli border protests, accused of using force against dissent

 

[h4rm0ny]

But... What is this agenda? Is it to concrete Israel as its own permanent country? I thought that was already the case. Is it to make us feel less bad about Palestine? Doesn't matter how bad we feel no one with power cares enough to stop it.

Israel and it's foreign policy is the world's leading cause of anti-Semitism. Zionists have been pretending they're synonymous with being Jewish since day one. The goals are straight-forward: shutdown criticism of Israel by outsiders, cast Jewish critics of Zionism as race traitors.

Despite that it is easily demonstrated the two are not the same.

The thing is those demanding the right to criticise Israel (lefties basically)

I have been called many nasty names in my time, but "Leftie" is a new low.

 

[Caracus2k]

The thing is those demanding the right to criticise Israel (lefties basically) without being accused of anti-semitism are usually the first to sling around accusations of Islamophobia/racism whenever anyone (usually people on the right) criticises Islam. I support being able to criticise both and people should attack the argument with a counter-argument rather than devolving things into infantile name calling as a way to shut down debate entirely.

One thing often missed in this argument is that anti Semitism is often targeted at (known/openly) non religious Jews. 'Islamophobia' isn't generally directed at non religious people from Muslim majority countries or backgrounds unless by mistake.

Its the same breakdown thought - criticize the ideology not the people inherently and you are probably on the right side of things so to speak

 

[jsmoke]

They're doing pretty much what the Nazis did to them, maybe it's a Stockholm syndrome effect of maybe it's destiny. It's a racial thing not a religious thing. Just like the Nazis wanted a pure Aryan or Scandinavian breed, they want as Jewish bloodline as possible.

It's extremely difficult if not impossible for anyone without Jewish parents or bloodline to emigrate there.

Bottom line is that the Jews were persecuted for hundreds of years in Europe, kicked out of every country they were ever in and then the horrors of ww2 so it's understandable they are still under a lot of pain and paranoia to say the least.

There's no solution now, maybe over time they will soften their stance but they're not exactly in the ideal place to avoid more persecution, right in the heart of an opposing religious belief and the biggest in the world.

I just can't see how there can ever be a solution, the funny thing is that if you or I were to get a ancestral DNA test many of us would probably have Jewish ancestry.

Like anything else, do you believe in luck?

Could have a few decisions decades ago have changed the course of history, the what if's. I can't see personally how that makes sense though.

They're there for a reason.

 

[Teh_Next]

I notice you ignored or at least didn't address the part where I pointed out that Arab Israelis all too often have better human rights in general than they would have in surrounding states.....

Like is said the BDS lot are a bit selective in their outrage. Being in a voting block 20% the size of the population is one thing but then we have Hamas who have 'forgotten/ neglected' to hold elections ever since they came into power.

Now I suggest you grab both of your buttocks and go do some research on what happens to minorities/dissenters when they protest the ruling establishment in Israel and surrounding countries and report back.

Because Israeli Arabs can be quite (pro)active in participation in wider protests against perceived issues with their ruling establishment



Where as the alternative in the combined area aren't exactly known for allowing dissent

And I suggest to you that I'm going to force you out your home. Because, you're an Arab and I'm a Jew. Human rights my left,right and your left right buttock. Research lol.

 

[Caracus2k]

And I suggest to you that I'm going to force you out your home. Because, you're an Arab and I'm a Jew. Human rights my left,right and your left right buttock. Research lol.

Israeli Arabs have property rights and protection under the law like everyone else in Israel.

The illegal Jewish settlements are built in Palestinian territories. Israeli Arabs are not having property systematically seized from them.

You again either neglect or fail to address the point that Israeli Arabs are often better off then their counterparts and can actively engage in politics, dissent and protest at rates and levels other Arabs cannot in their own counties without violent repression.

I don't need to defend the illegal settlements which I'm happy to oppose.

But if the Hamas ever had control over Israel it would be bloody genocide.

The BDS lot are either malevolent and/or useful idiots (for the Hamas genocidal ideology).

 

[Teh_Next]

I don't need to defend the illegal settlements which I'm happy to oppose.

But if the Palestians ever had control ober Israel it would be bloody genocide.

Wha?
Why you wanna defend something you're happy to oppose? Are you opposing those "Palestians" (lol) "ober" (lol) those Palestinians of something or other?

 

[G-MAN2004]

Just another dirty tactic with the aim of shutting down all criticism. The Islamophobia nonsense is exactly the same.

There's clearly strength in being the 'victim'.

 

[Silicon Si]

To get the terminology right its Anti Zionism, the current regime in Israel at the moment.

 

[B&W]

Israel and it's foreign policy is the world's leading cause of anti-Semitism. Zionists have been pretending they're synonymous with being Jewish since day one. The goals are straight-forward: shutdown criticism of Israel by outsiders, cast Jewish critics of Zionism as race traitors.

Despite that it is easily demonstrated the two are not the same.



I have been called many nasty names in my time, but "Leftie" is a new low.

Well said, totally agree. The influence they have in American politics is obscene.

The Holocaust should always be remembered but modern day Israeli leaders are diminishing it's value by milking it.

 

[Abraxaz1]

Oh look the weekly bash Israel thread....

I'm sure we will see all the usual arguments being sent by the usual suspects.

End of the day we are in the situation because of the actions of both sides.

I always love how the left will support anyone bar Israel, despite the fact the majority of them would be dead within a week if they visited these countries.

 

[Thecaferacer]

David Baddiel gave a great interview on this whereby he stated most people still equate anti-Semitism with card carrying neo-nazis skinhead, which it isn't.

He argues it is narrative pushed out by the left of the Jew controlling the international banking system, media and a sinister Jewish conspiracy to control everything. I'm inclined toagree.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I just can't see how there can ever be a solution, the funny thing is that if you or I were to get a ancestral DNA test many of us would probably have Jewish ancestry.

And equally many Jews would find they had non-Jewish ancestry. For whatever that actually means. Ashkenazi jews are just Western Europeans, pretty much. Around, iirc, 800AD, there was a major wave of Jewish proselytisation and conversion of people to Judaism. And to add further twist, Palestinian ancesty is in large part Jewish people who converted to Islam in around 600-700AD. Like most race-based identity movements, it's largely misrepresentation and selectiveness. Zionism is a racial supremacy movement for Jewish people with all that comes with it. The idea of an ethnostate is deeply repulsive to me (and many Jewish people). But that's what Israel is. The knesset recently voted through (by a narrow margin but it passed) an explicit statement that Israel is for Jews. Israel has engaged in some horrendous acts based on that goal including but not limited to forcibly sterilising Black immigrants.

Racial identity movements are pernicious and appeal to our basest instincts. Jews are no different to anyone else - and thus as susceptible to such movements as the rest of us.